Erny

I think my boy broke the mould when it comes to matters of "should" But perhaps it is possible that the carrot pieces I was using as treats could have upset the apple cart. I'll hold on to that thought as I go to bed, at least . Another day tomorrow. Another poop (if he will - he didn't today). Hopefully it will be a good one .

Thanks Staranais.. Yes - you've made sense. I'll get cracking on the brushing, at least to stop more plaque forming. I'll be getting his teeth done under GA soon. Shelby-001 - thanks for your post. I'm concerned about it being a protein intolerance too. When he was a pup I worked on getting him used to a variety of things, including veggies, as my previous girl Kal (bhcs) was not only a fussy eater but also developed/had a sensitive stomach and this made her food requirements quite restrictive too. When my current boy came along I had grand plans of being able to feed him almost everything and anything. Ha!! I will check up about this "93 Foods Assay" blood test. Never heard of it, but very interested in it. Save a lot of mucking around and potentially otherwise more invasive tests. Thanks for the tip and I shall pass on your hug . Noisy - don't apologise. As you see, I'm interested in the same . I've noticed Mandela's coat has improved with the Z/D diet. For the most part his coat has been any where from pretty good to really good. But I'd get an inkling when things were on the down hill slide when he'd start scurfing up - even if it was more than usual. But tonight I notice that his skin seems really clean and free of scurf. That's a good sign, but of course I'm making sure that a part of me is touching wood when I say that.

There certainly is. One of the things that dog people will be hearing is that it was all Labor's fault, all Labor's doing. They now need to put the pressure on their new government to get some balance and commonsense back into animal legislation in Vic - SOONER rather than later, before the new government gets complacent. Let's hope that in the coming months other states' voters follow the Victorian trend - its been a very long Labor drought and the place needs a clean out. Souff Completely agree. The upside is that instead of talking with them as a party in opposition, we might talk to them as a party in Government. We have the hope that they will be more willing and able to listen. Hope, though. Not a guarantee.

??? How??? Is it different from Federal and Queensland preferential voting? Isn't it up to the individual to allocate preferences? Can't you vote Greens first, then whoever you want second? Maybe I am missing something. A Victorian DOLer might be more knowledgeable on what is happening with the preferences down there. Anyone Vic political animals around tonight? I wouldn't call me a "Political Animal" - political process never ceases to bamboozle me. But my understanding was that yes, Greens preferences went to Labor. Liberals put Greens last on the "how to vote" card, and Labor second last to try to avoid this. I think that's how it worked. I'm pleased for the result and hopefully a bunch of fresh faces and some ears who are ready, willing and able to listen to sense and sensibility. Wish the Liberal representative in my electorate had gained the seat though.

Noisy : I agree that dry food puts on weight. I see it in many of the other dogs I come across - many of them over weight. I agree too that in Mandela's case, something isn't digesting properly. His rotten chicken smelly farts certainly made that quite clear . I tried the addition of pro-biotics. Different types. Chinese. Some others that our Naturopath put us onto. I'm not adding anything at the moment, simply because I don't want to add beyond the Z/D diet, at least not without Veterinary direction. I might be wrong, but if I start adding this or that, I might not know what's doing what. It's only been a week so I'll give it a bit longer to sort itself out, and at least get past the fact that I fed a few carrot pieces as treats. But you could be right. Maybe with this diet, all he might need is some Pro-biotics if things don't pick up and go well with it as is. Thanks .

Thanks for that info. What's the difference between plaque and tartar? I mean, how can I tell the difference? Lol .... I can just imagine Fledge Om Nomming .

In my electorate (Narre Warren North), we have Labor (DONNELLAN, Luke) at 51.78% and we have Liberal (FRAZER, Michelle) at 48.22%. From what I can tell, 100% of the votes have been counted. Of these, 5.76% were informal votes. Bummer. Luke Donnellan was no help whatsoever with any of the dog-related issues I sought his support on. I am so disappointed. ETA: Mind you, without the party preferred votes, Michelle would have got in - 42.93% to 42.06%.

Sounds interesting, whatever it is that you'll be up to, Staranais. Is this part of your SAR work with her?

Yes - I can do that with him. I use a finger toothbrush. Really didn't think it was making much of a difference for the effort, but it is something I should at least do in the absence of anything else. Do you think the doggy toothpaste helps with the removing of the tartar? I would love to have his once beautiful young white teeth back. There is no way you are hogging this thread. I'm grateful for the input. Even just to be able to share what's going on with Mandela with others, as it gets frustrating. So thank you .

Thanks Staranais and Sheridan, for the info. I'll hold back on anything else other than Z/D for the time being and see how things go. Will probably have to experiment several times (with the same 'outside' food ingredient) before I'd know if that's what might be causing the problem or not, before I'd know. Also good to know that I could stick with Z/D if it turns out that this is the food of choice for him. Would have loved for him to have been able to eat bones though. His teeth are already a bit on the skanky side and he's only 2.5yo. But that's not the end of the world. I'll be getting them cleaned soon - just would have preferred the more natural method.

I don't think that comparing weight is the way to go, given my boy is a bit under, and is quite narrow for his height. My previous girl "Kal" (bhcs) was considerably smaller than Mandela. She was optimal weight at 31kg. If she reached 33kg she was getting too fat. For the last 8 months has been on 2kg of cooked chicken per day. He's had his ups and downs on it, but it has at least sustained him. That aside, he needs weight. The guide says "80lb = 5.66 to 7.75 cups". He's 36kg and that's not his optimal weight, so I should actually be feeding him more than what I am. I aim for around what would be the equivalent of 7 cups of Z/D kibble. He was a bit lethargic today. And IMO, the way he holds himself, doesn't look completely comfortable. We took it easy. But this morning he ate 2 x cups of the Z/D kibble. Then, this afternoon, I decided to do his nails (Dremel). I normally feed him treats during the process (I sit on his mat with him). Because I can't venture outside of the Z/D diet, I used the kibble as his treats - hand fed, 1 by 1 as we went. He ate them readily enough, and then began looking for them. When I was up to his last foot, I put the bowl in front of him and he ate what was left of the 2 x cups I'd put in there, while I finished off his back foot. He was the one who later 'reminded' me it was time for his tea. This comprised of 2 x cups of Z/D kibble and 1 x can of Z/D. He ate the lot straight down. He hasn't pooped today, so something is still going on. He might have, perhaps later in the day, but the rain we've had here wouldn't have helped to have encouraged him. He also let go a smelly fart this morning. We've been free of those for the past few days, which has been a really pleasant experience. But his farts were frequent beforehand, so we're not quite back where we used to be, yet. I wouldn't have thought that quantity would cause the things that are happening, but then I'm a bit out of theories. One thing, although I really didn't think this would be the culprit (this time around) was that a couple of days ago I started using cut up carrot pieces as his treats, seeing as I'm not allowed to use any other meat protein source (the vet said vegies would be ok if I wanted to feed him those). I've withheld the carrot treats for the time being. What makes things difficult is that he can be so up and down that when I experiment with anything I never know whether the change is due to what I've done or whether it was going to happen anyway.

I'm sorry - perhaps it is that I'm considerably older than yourself? But 10 years of age was "senior" for a dog back in my younger years, not "on their last legs". It was fairly the norm for dogs to live to 14, 15, 16 and upwards, provided they did not come to grief through accident.

By golly, but that was a good post, Nekhbet . It is not to tar all Vets with the same brush - there are some around who at least know their salt. But they are few and far between. And people who can think for themselves and who will shoulder some responsibility and show some common sense are also becoming less in numbers.

I have been following your thread and so pleased and relieved that you took your dog to another vet and followed through with the specialist/emergency vet. For your dog to have been hiding is a big indicator that the little guy felt very ill indeed. So good for you - you sound like a very dedicated dog-owner. I do hope the current care will see your dog back to good healthin no time. Just one tip - when he does come home to you, avoid sooking to him too much even though you do and will feel sorry for him. Regardless of the breed, dogs are dogs. Genetics plays a part of course, but when we can identify that one breed might be more sensitive and become more attached than another, we need to raise them to be as independent and confident as they can be and that sometimes takes a bit more effort than a breed who might be genetically inclined to be confident and independent. This helps to set them up to be able to cope at least a bit better than they otherwise might in those times when they can't be with you. Good luck - I will be looking forward to hearing some good news that tells us he is recovering and soon to be back home with you.

I don't know the stats, but I can only say that we just simply didn't seem to see these things. Our dogs just generally lived to a ripe age (unless they were killed on the road, as the times were a changing during our childhood). We didn't see the lumps and bumps; the allergies (although our dog did suffer flea bite excema); the lameness etc. Most of the dogs around our neighbourhood were pure bred. Majority of those were Labradors (we had a yellow one). I remember there being an Australian Terrier, a GSD, a JRT, a Blood Hound (he got stolen from the owers' back yard, btw - so that sort of thing did occur back then too, although not as rife as it is now), a couple of Daxxies and a Mini Poodle who lived in our street. There were more, but I'd have to really put on my thinking cap to remember them and their breeding. Funnily enough I don't recall the now more common breeds such as the Border Collie, Golden Retriever, Maltese or Shi tzhu being members of our immediate neighbourhood. I don't remember many 'Heinz Variety' dogs, although that's not to say I never came across them occasionally.

x2

Last weigh in he was 36kg. That was a week ago just before I started him on the Hills Z/D. I would guess that he might be about 36.5 or 36.7 now (maybe - he surprised me he was only 36kg at the last weigh in), but he'll lose that quickly unless things turn around and come 'right' very quickly. The most he's been is about 38 or 38.5 (from memory) and he looked really great for the weight. ETA: I would class him as "large breed" rather than "giant breed", but then I'm used to big/tall dogs.

Oh Phooey. And I know they would have believed me when I came through the line for the second time and told them I was SpikesPuppy.

Mandela was crazy with energy last night. Really puppy on the go type behaviour. He was also fairly energetic VERY early this morning, but I convinced him to sleep a little longer. But when we got up and I fed him, he turned away from his kibble Z/D. He went to the toilet and his poop was sludgy. He's been off all day and wouldn't touch the kibble Z/D when I offered it to him again during the day. No one else would be able to tell, but to me it was obvious that he was not feeling well. He ran around a bit at my folks, but he tired quickly. His enthusiasm for his ball was even way down by comparison to normal. He did at least eat his night time meal which is the one I mix the Z/D can with the Z/D kibble so at least he got to eat half his daily rations. And he was enthusiastic for it. And he did lick the bowl clean. I enjoyed the last few posts where I could talk about him doing so well, but knew it was too early to tell. Just always disappointing when this happens. I won't post on a daily basis about his poops now, as these are likely to go up and down, as will his eating patterns, or just down. But I'll let you know the upshot after I've given this food more time. <sigh> It always seems to happen when he's getting to the stage that I think I might need to back off the food quantity a little, because he's getting close to looking ideal weight. Still - good while it lasted .

Can I have your vote then, SP? Gotta get rid of Labor. Tried them. They didn't work. Sure - the others aren't looking exciting, but at least they are a different bunch of people and maybe better to speak with. Just a glimmer of hope that I'm shedding here.

Thanks Cosmolo. Anyone know what the "distance" rule is? Can I be down the corner somewhere, away, but on the way?

I was thinking about taking the petition (RSPCA to be accountable) down when I go to vote, and stand (at a distance) and perhaps grab some signatures on the way in or out. Something tells me this would be poor show though - snatching people's attentions when they are only going somewhere they have to but not necessarily want to. And I'm not sure that it isn't against the law. Is it?

That may be the case, but the question was asked "how do we make a difference", and I provided a suggestion. The question wasn't is it feasible or not. ... I thought my contributions as a member of the public (who one day hopes to perhaps become a dog trainer) might be considered to be of some value. Obviously not, so I will leave the professional trainers to discuss the matter. Your contribution IS VERY MUCH of value and appreciated, so please don't stop. Counter "argument" (for want of better word) is only put up by way of being conversational .... we need to look at all sides of everything so that we can take an idea, squeak it, mould it, change its shape and finally (hopefully) come up with ideas that have always been fantastic, but perhaps are now even more workable. There was no offence intended by my contribution FDT and if I quote someone it's usually so that people have an understanding of what line of thinking I'm running with. So please do continue to help out with the brain storming, FDT. ETA: And in fact, some of the ideas and comments that are made here may well be some things that will also assist you in your quest as a dog-trainer further down the track .

This thought crossed my mind, but I got the impression it is not a diet for long-term. Don't know why and might have the wrong impression. Didn't worry to pursue it at the time but will if that becomes necessary. And yes, it is expensive although I haven't tallied precisely the cost to me, but I think it proves to be less than what I've been forking out on a weekly basis for Mandela's food for the past year and a half or more. Previously I've been spending at least $105.00 per week (on just his chicken alone). Before that it was BARF and before that it was VAN pre-mix for allergy dogs. I wasn't sure how long I would be able to keep that up for (although I'm sure I'd make something manage if push came to shove ) and there is no way I want to add that up and average it out on the basis of his estimated life span!! . I think that the Z/D might come in at about $75 - $80 per week. So it is better than previous, the bonus being that he is doing better on it (fingers crossed this good fortune lasts). It is really quite depressing to spend all the money I'd spend only to see your dog not doing any or getting any better on it. So from that aspect, I'm quite delighted at the moment and happy to be able to report that I am.

I tend to agree with the above. I think for the time being it will be about voting for the best of what might be a bad lot. All I can tell anyone is that I have campaigned on a few issues over the years, and Labor, who has been in Government for that period (and who are the ones who have been bringing in all the laws from the outset and inbetween) essentially don't care, don't want to listen. I have found our Labor Candidate to pay lip service, but in reality he just follows the (read : his) leader and doesn't really care or agree as much as he might like you to think he does. He was of no help to me at any stage. The Minister for Agriculture hasn't wanted to listen to me or even receive submissions that seek the changes we ask for and which explain in full the reasons for those changes. He hasn't been interested. AND, the mere fact that they are giving an open door to almost whatever RSPCA wants in terms of certain laws, even when there is no evidence, rhyme or reason for those laws (ie breaches Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness), completely insults me and quite frankly, scares me. I am disappointed to hear of the Libs' policy regards its intentions to give the RSPCA more power. But I guess it is now likely to happen regardless of which major party we vote for. I think I'd prefer to try the Libs and hope they can prove inside their first term that they are at least more willing to listen and reason than the Labor Party has in the past. So I guess for me it is about getting rid of the one that has been tried and found to fail, and running with the slim hope that the next one might at least be a bit different, more amenable and aware of "people", their needs and concerns. IOW, I think Labor is the more dangerous of the two, so a vote for the Libs is the likely course for me. Sue Pennicuik (Greens - Brighton) put up a really good argument against the recent Victorian Bill. She was the only Politician who did and she does IMO deserve some recognition for that. I'm really sorry though that the Greens are so allied to Labor and I'm also really sorry that the Greens represent "animal rights" (as opposed to animal welfare).