Erny

*bump* And also just repeating my question (in case it has been forgotten). I've had a bit of a look at the KCC Website but can't find the answer. If an ANKC Member via a different State Body (eg NT :D) came down to Victoria, are they allowed to use the Victorian State Body facilities? Does anyone know? I'm only presuming the answer to be "yes" - otherwise it would mean that anyone travelling interstate to show/exhibit their dog would not be allowed to use the exercise yards that are a part of Dogs Victoria's grounds. But I don't want to presume. ;)

I don't agree that you have the right to use that as a justification for allowing your dog to pester them without making any effort to control him.

Dog's binocular vision is not as good as ours. They use scent and hearing more to identify us. If you speak to your dog and then once your dog gets the chance to scent you, then your dog more easily and quickly recognises you. Lol .... I have been in the office of the kennels where I do my Boarding/Training, when people have come to collect their dogs who have been kennelled there. The dogs come through to the office and if I'm the first person they get to, often they get all excited, until I say "wrong person" and they hear their owners speak. I cannot answer you as to why your dog isn't over the top excited to see you but I can suggest that what you describe as temporary "aloofness" at home may well be "quietness". It is quite normal for dogs to be very quiet for a couple of days or so, after coming from a stay at the kennels where they have been over stimulated. It is a good time to establish or re-establish your leadership when you have had a break away from your dog and just picked them up. Don't push the 'love' factor - that is more likely to only increase the "aloofness" factor you speak of. Ignore (just do what you need to do for the basic care), be the one to instigate contact, use NILIF principals and then see what happens. And don't worry - unless you beat your dog up your dog still 'loves' you.

I have grown some petosterums (sp?) on the rear boundary of my property. They aren't my favourite but I'm not growing them as many/most do (ie as a dense screen/hedge). Instead, I've strategically selected certain points. Their purpose is to provide a bit of privacy but also to put my dog off any thoughts of trying to join the neighbour's children for playtime. I have wonderful rear neighbours who have watched with fond interest at how Mandela has developed and grown. They even asked me if I thought it might be ok for them to get a dog - they didn't want to get one if I thought it would cause problems with my boy. I mean, how good is that? Of course they are entitled to use their backyard in any way they wish, and that would include a trampoline if they had one, but I know that if I asked them to help me out by doing something to make training of my dog easier, they would do it. Anyway, back to the petosterums (sp?) ..... they are fairly fast growing and you can hedge them more densely if you want to.

I will be writing a message or two to both the Liberal and Labor Parties on the back of my ballot paper at the State Elections next Saturday. It won't be rude, but it will indicate how disillusioned I am and how futile they are. I have it on good authority that this will NOT render my vote invalid/informal. Perhaps there's an idea there - if all of us could indicate that we own dogs and we vote (or something along those lines) ??? Steve - any suggestions for a good message? ETA: lol, or perhaps you can't put it up on a public forum

Yep. But not meant as a side track to Steve's thread.

Discrimination is pretty rife throughout our various Victorian dog laws. Eg. Dog #1 in Public Place - Microchipped and Council Reg'd. Not actually wearing Council Rego Tag on collar. Ka Ching! $240.00 Fine to that dog owner, thank you very much. Dog #2 in Public Place - Microchipped and Council Reg'd. Not actually wearing Council Rego Tag on collar. But has been shown at Dogs Victoria Sanctioned event in last 12 months. That's ok then. No fine to that dog owner. Off Topic I know (sorry Steve) but it reveals even more of the stupidity, futility and discrimination created by our ill thought out laws. And this one did NOT go through without mention. There were objections. But the Labor Govt pushed it through regardless. And ashamedly, the Liberal/National Parties asserted the laws were flawed but in the same breath and sentence announced to Parliament they would not oppose them. So we have a Government creating stupid, cruddy and faulty laws and we have a Coalition knowing they are stupid, cruddy and faulty laws but giving them a green light anyway. God help us .

Are interstate CC Members allowed to utilise the Victorian KCC grounds (including the exercise yards)?

Position Vacant From Dogs Victoria Website : Couldn't find the ad.

Both as bad as each other . Ok - So, would we be better to live in NT? Or is it the same answer as Steve has given above?

Warning : Potential Stupid Question Alert !!! Are there advantages to a (for example) NSW CC Membership by comparison to a (for example) Queensland CC Membership? In other words, if one was going to move State for the sake of better CC representation, where would be the best?

Yes - the law is SO STUPID I see that people, through disbelief, are finding it difficult to understand (or be convinced) that it wasn't about the debarking that got Judy 'pinched', it was about the fact that she exhibited the debarked dogs. I do agree that the law needs to be targeted and removed. But the fact that there are orgs that (a) asked for that law; (b) saw it and did nothing before it was allowed through; and © wielded the power the law granted them even though they didn't have to take it as far as they did - well, to me, the whole lot is interwoven and can't be fully teased apart and they are just as guilty and stupid for supporting/enforcing such a law as those who sat without thought and wrote it up. Edited for grammar.

Good luck, Bokezu. Whatever it is, I hope it is something from which your lad will recover swiftly and without drama.

Was the e-collar used as a positive punishment, or was it used with negative reinforcement training principals? I find that using the negative reinforcement principal tends to teach a conditioned response. Your dog's drive sounds like it is far too high for a P+ to be effective. The e-collar training that I do starts off outside the presence of the stimuli that puts a dog into drive - the distraction intensity works up from there. That's ok - I truly do hope you will contact Steve at K9 Pro. Sounds to me that this dog needs some really serious help, as do you. It also sounds as though this dog has so much potential, if only its drive can be properly harnessed. Drive work along with the use of the e-collar in the fashion I have suggested would go well hand in hand. Good luck and do please let us know what you decide on doing .

I would have removed the dog also. I'm glad the Postie did too but sorry he got bitten. Hope the dog's owner takes full responsibility, pays the Postie's medical expenses and gives the Postie a nice bonus for saving his dog at his own peril. Also hope the dog's owner does something immediately about his dog running the fence. None of this is the dog's fault. He is doing what he's learnt to do as a dog. Postie. I hope you win tattslotto.

I'm sorry - but I'm still not understanding. You mean she had only the first vaccination out of the series of 3, at 8 weeks of age? Regardless, I presume your Vet went ahead and vaccinated, so done deal now. Glad the op went ok .

Fair enough - but is that to say that the RSPCA had no choice other than to seize Judy's dogs? Genuine question. No digs.

I didn't see it that way. If I were a lay person who wasn't as involved as I am and was as aware as I am of the bullying and unfair tactics the RSPCA tries on (many times successfully), I think my attitude to the petition would be "what harm could the petition do?". After all, all it is asking for is for an independent body to which the RSPCA would be made to be accountable to, rather than being accountable to no-one. If there is no corruption within the RSPCA *cough* then neither the RSPCA nor any of its loyal supporters who are innocent to the knowledge of what we might have should have any qualms with the petition being successful. If the RSPCA doesn't do anything to which it needs to account for, then what difference to how things are now? To me, the petition is reasonably benign. It's just calling for accountability and I think many people would see no harm in that.

I think I would be inclined to address this dog's training with the use of an e-collar (negative reinforcement/low stim methodology). You're in NSW so Steve at K9 Pro would be the person to contact. Use of the e-collar is not about pain. It is about a strong aversive annoyance and teaching the dog (a) that it has the ability to control the annoyance and (b) HOW to control the annoyance. I think your dog would likely understand this training. Use of this tool in this way also enhances your bond and leadership with the dog. I'd also implement (straight away) "The Triangle of Temptation" exercise/program. Refer the pinned section at the top of the Training Forum. Put there also by Steve at K9 Pro. Excellent program. It sounds to me that regardless of what you might be thinking, she's got you (and probably everyone else) figured. The mere fact that you will move (in an attempt to let her know she doesn't control you) is what she wants you to do, so that she can then control that movement. So in effect, she is getting you to do what she wants. She's controlling you by getting you to try to control her, by getting you to react. I do not like/enjoy hearing the word "break" when it comes to animals. It needs to be taken in context though, just as those "nasty" words like dominance, leadership and punishment do. But IMO the idea of "breaking" (usually accompanied by the word "spirit") is not the ideal of training and in fact should be the furthest from what we want to achieve. You use words such as "get back at it"; "doesn't give ground to people"; "squaring up"; "comes back harder"; "doing her thing harder and faster". This dog's behaviour needs to be channelled in another direction and very quickly, if my impression of the contents of your post is anything to go by and hence I'd reiterate my suggestion for you to get in contact with Steve at K9 Pro, as soon as possible. This behaviour, from a 5.5 mo dog - I expect it is going to become even more difficult as the dog reaches 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 and 14 months of age, and again as she nears 2yo. What do you think your relationship with this girl is like? ETA: What training methods have you tried/implemented with her to date?

Whilst this thread is not about "aggression begets aggression" per se, I'm going to take the opportunity to follow on with the line of discussion that is currently occurring by adding my 2 cents worth. I tend to agree with some of the other of the posters here that there are SOME dogs where a correction is very helpful for the beginning of rehabilitation for these sorts of problems. I also agree that the only way to advise, especially over the net, is to err on the side of being non-confrontational (and therefore using only the more positive techniques) because human safety is paramount. It is good that the topic of corrections do find their way in to these sort of discussions though, as if we all avoid mentioning them, readers will become used to reading only of positive methodology and begin to believe that corrections have no place in dog training/behaviour at all, when they do. But they should only be applied if the handler is certain of what he/she is doing. Something also to consider when thinking of corrections - I see the termonology "aggression begets aggression". That's potentially true, although I do like to consider a correction as something delivered not from an aggressor but from a leader. These sorts of corrections are effected quickly; keenly; calmly - and are over just as fast or faster than they begin. They are not violent and there is as little as possible movement from the handler. This is where PPCollars are excellent tools for the job because handled correctly, it means that the handler's body movement is kept to a minimum yet the correction for all this reduced movement, has better impact. But anyway - I should not linger on the topic of PPCollars as it has a habit of causing me to digress from the topic at hand . Speaking of being on topic - something the OP might try is teaching this dog to target to the hand. The OP and/or the OP's Mum can then potentially use this to entice the dog from the bed without eliciting the aggressive behaviour. Install a baby gate to help with keeping the dog out of the room and off the bed. Might be easier than remembering to close the bedroom door.

Steve - I wonder if one of the Banks would sponsor MDBA for a "Responsible Dog Owner Day". ??? Far fetched?

Lol ..... I love clients who are where you are at, DTDO. They are just so ready to be the consistent, assertive but calm leaders that you need them to be to move through and beyond unwanted dog behaviours. Great that you have found an angle of training you would like to explore and I fully encourage you to do so - I'm sure you'll find it fun. I'd suggest that with your new found dedication and calm assertiveness, you probably don't need use of a clicker (I use the word "yes" as my dog's marker word, rather than the sound of the click from the clicker) but you and your dog might find it fun, and the novelty of it to your dog might assist you, so I say kudos and go with it . I agree with teaching target. As a start, try teaching your dog to target your fist. Because it is late I'm going to be lazy and paste THIS link. Don't agree with the pop-corn suggestion but you can substitute that with a better treat. There's lots of links to targetting if you'd like to google, and each will probably have some little different quirk to it, but just to get you started :D. You could also teach your dog to "weave" through your legs. Use lure, click (mark) and treat for this, but work to move off using food as a lure quickly. You can teach your dog static leg weave (ie you stand still, legs apart) or motion weaving (ie you take a step forward and as you do your dog moves through; take another step and dog moves through the other way; and so on) in this way and it is a fun thing to do to break up the other of your obedience training. You could also teach your dog to walk backwards using the same method as above.

Thank goodness that ordeal is over, for Judy's sake. But by lord ..... 12 month's of making her life a misery, all because she "exhibited" her voice lowered dogs. Hope the RSPCA is proud of their "16 wins". Truly padded out, by the sounds, seeing as 25 of the others were dismissed. Steve - if it is not too rude to ask : What costs ended up being associated with the RSPCA's "care" of Judy's dogs? (Phew - I was so relieved to know that they were being protected from exhibition at DogsVic sanctioned shows .) What did the other additional expenses (including solicitor fees; court costs; etc) amount to? Please let me know to pull my head in and mind my own, if I am out of order for asking.

There is essence of truth in this but it is something that has been written where all things are equal. IE That we're dealing with 'balanced' dogs .... dogs of good and appropriate temperament. I do agree that dogs are the best dog communicators - we'll only ever be able to mimic them in our fuddly human ways (although I think we do reasonably well sometimes too :D), but we'll never speak as well to a dog as another (balanced) dog might. Tiffs I don't mind and I do generally let dogs sort our their own tiffs. But a "tiff" to me is something that is done and dusted within a nanno second. If it has gone on long enough for me to draw breath and respond before it has finished, then it is time I stood in. For, whilst I'm not a dog, I'm their leader after all, and it is my right - I want to let BOTH of them know that aggressive/upsetting behaviour is not on around me. Something, though, Giraffez, that I cannot tell you and that is whether you are 'reading' your two dogs properly. Are you really seeing aggression? Could it be a play growl type behaviour? The other thing I cannot tell you from this side of cyber space is whether your older (but young) dog is behaving in a way that indicates he is not sure about this pup. Has your 2yo had much experience of pups other than when he was a pup himself? You need to read your dog to know this and if that's the case, not only gentle him into understanding the pup (by being a leader; stopping things going OT; giving each other breaks and the space necessary for them to get to know each other more calmly) but also controlling the pup into a more sedate behaviour. If the situation is not already imminently dangerous and over the top, doing this might just bide the time necessary for the two to bond. But you will need to be the Leader. And your impression of "leader" and what cuts it will be for your dogs to decide. ETA: If you're not sure about what you're seeing, getting someone in to assist you would be the go.

Sorry - but it was a genuine question. I don't know your position at work (for all I know you could be a Vet), but saying "routine" ..... do your Vets where you work do the vaccinations at same time as surgery because it is routine, regardless of how minor or major the surgery is?