Erny

Anglesun - you're talking as though, with gloves on, we won't feel the accidental tooth/bite and will do nothing about it. Why do you think that? Do you think that we should also strip bear for a dog who tends to mouth, just so we can feel its teeth better than we might when we have clothes on? LOL .... that'd be a sight !!! If the gloves aren't handy and we need to work with the dog we'll probably do what we do now and work with the dog without gloves on, and take the accidental knocks on our hands and let our skin bruise up, break, bleed. But it would be nice to have them so we don't have to bear the scars and the pain in the interim of the dog learning to target better. I've worked with gloves on before - particularly while I was trying to give my hands a chance to heal up before copping more accidental marks. Gloves don't stop the feel but they stop/reduce the damage. Why are you against sensible protection? Oh, and who said that wearing gloves means we won't be teaching the dogs to respect our skin?

I have a client with a Rotti who needs, just as a precaution, a cage muzzle for her dog. Not a plastic one. My client has looked around but hasn't been able to find where she can get one. Does anyone know off the top of their heads which stores carry these items in the South Eastern Suburbs of Melbourne so I may pass this information on please? Cheers Erny

I presume the leather is soft hide. Steve - I wouldn't mind purchasing a pair to try out when you have them available. Let me know when you have them in . I just copped another tooth knock today, from one of the dogs I have been working with. I literally have thin skin and just a small knock that I don't even notice ends up a bleed under the skin. My poor hands have copped a beating over the while - they work hard, so they deserve some TLC and protection :D. So long as they don't restrict bending in the fingers. Cheers Judi

I like to try equipment out on myself when it is possible. I have done so with check chains, PPCollar and also with different stim levels of the E-collar. I have similated a head-collar, but not to the extremes - it is pretty easy to imagine how easy neck injury could occur. I also know how painful a pinch under the armpits are. I do think it helps to empathise with the dog in at least knowing what the dog will feel - at least give some idea of assimilation in that respect. I don't think it goes to "understanding" because to me that word in the context you've used it in (and perhaps someone else used it in) suggests there is an understanding at both a physical and psychological level. The physical is easy to assess. The psychological is not something that every dog-owner would have an inkling of. Do you not think that dog's have the ability to feel the same or similar sensations as us? I'm sure "hot" is hot to them, just as cold is. Hurt is hurt. Every dog, just as every human, is an individual and levels of sensation would be different from one to another. But there is an approximation, otherwise how or why would Doctors, as they are about to give you a tetnus booster, will tell you "there is just going to be a bit of a sting", LOL ???

Steve - apart from the protective rubber, what are the gloves made of?

K9: I agree 100% with you on teaching people what tools do and how to use them, but when it comes to how laws are created, I think your off. The law in Vic is not based on any fact or abuse, speak to Erny on this one... Legislations and laws are created by Politicians, for Politicians. My highlights Ain't it a fact. Aidan - When Victorian Govt banned use of the PPCollar, I was puzzled, as I had many years of excellent experience/s and results with their use. But I figured the Government couldn't/wouldn't have passed a law to ban unless they had good reason. How wrong was I ..... a couple of hundred dollars later in exchange for some documents via Freedom of Information, hours of reading and learning that the Government acknowledge (in writing) that "There is no record of evidence of harm" from the use of PPCollars. (Can the same be said for the other of the commonly used training tools that are employed by the majority of the general dog-owning public? - Rhetorical question, no need to answer.) The RSPCA's supportive submission content? "The regulation is in line with its policies." (And going by what the FOI documents provided me, that was NOT a summary of the RSPCA's submission in so far as the PPCollar regulation to ban was concerned - that was it, total.) Yeah - wow!! That's really profound and evidential. Not. ;) I'm sorry to go on about it - I know it is not the thread topic. But I'm cross that this regulation was passed on absolutely NO GROUNDS and in complete defiance to the Laws of Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness and am somewhat incensed at the arrogance of our Victorian Government and how stupid they must think we are, notwithstanding the very logical, sensible, educated and knowledgeable submissions it received objecting to the passing of the regulation. I have seen dogs that have needed a physical correction to stop dangerous behaviour fast (so that other reinforcing methods may be applied to the resultant preferred behaviour). I have seen dogs ignore correction after correction from the use of other training tools. Doesn't mean no damage is occurring - just means that whatever drive they are in is more than what that correction can deliver. Where a PPCollar would deliver a more effective correction without the potential for damage that was occurring. But we here in Victoria aren't allowed to use them. And they call that "Legislation to protect animals from abuse" ??? Sorry - even the Govt have no direct response that properly answers why or how they have done what they are done by the passing of our regulation. Well - they do have an answer, but they don't seem to want to give it. And it is my strong guess that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with animal abuse/cruelty at all. Oh - and I worked with a little dog more recently (Pom x). Loose Lead Walking exercise. Used no more than my ring finger to create the "pop" on the lead. Every time I "popped" the little dog "pipped". This, to a flat collar. Hey Aidan - I'm not meaning to single you out either . And I agree with you - ANY piece of equipment has the ability to cause pain when mis-used, including the PPCollar.

Would you try the same test with a head-collar on your face?

Or TREAT the microfilia that are present. ;)

Thanks. Your observation and interpretation is interesting. What do you think Eric would do if there is enough room on the couch for you, Kivi and himself? Have you ever tried out to see?

I think I see what you are saying, but for me I think you are blurring the edges between the two definitions somewhat, or perhaps it's a case of "you say tomaytos and I say tomahtos". A preventative would be something that is there, ready to stop (in this case, an illness) before it takes hold. A treatment would be something that is administered after (in this case) an illness has infected (in whatever shape or form). For a dog with, say, parvo (and I hope not). You don't give a vaccine after the event. The vaccine is a preventative, not a treatment. ETA: Having written the above, I see more clearly what you are saying and I think that perhaps both definitions could, strictly speaking be held as being correct.

Corvus - there are aversives which have the sensation of discomfort but also a bigger influence/impact on muscle/skeletal structure than others. I'd rather go for the one that produces the better learning response at the least amount of risk to the dog. And I can't right now think of any training restraint that doesn't produce some discomfort in one shape or form at some time or other. What ones did you have in mind that "don't apply discomfort"? And of course it goes without saying that what you might use on one dog might not suit another due to the type of dog, temperament, training objective, etc.

Not always. Some have/had two round rings (no swivel). With the 2 round-ringed type, you always use the ring that is on the top, ensuring also that the chain runs clean and isn't twisted. With the swivel type, you attach your lead to the swivel. As above, you still need to ensure that the chain runs clean and isn't twisted - the swivel attachment should be at the top.

No - it is a "treatment". Heartworm only reproduces in an infected dog, where the heartworms have fully matured (6-12 months). In order to infect another dog, the heartworm larvae have to be picked up by a mosquito through biting the infected dog. The larvae then need 14 days to develop to the stage where they can infect a dog bitten by the host mosquito. If at any time during their 14-day development, the temperature where they live falls to 14 degrees celcius or below, the development is aborted and has to start over. Once injected into a dog, the larvae need a further 45-60 days to develop to the stage where they can migrate into the bloodstream and lodge in the heart. The 'monthly' chewables/daily tabs are therefore killing the heartworm microfilaria. It is a treatment, not a preventative by any stretch. The medication does not "prevent" the dog from becoming infected by a mosquito which is a host to the heartworm. If you gave the standard regular treatment to a dog infected by mature heartworms, it will kill the worms which by then would have infiltrated the dog's heart - THIS is what makes it dangerous to give the normal treatment to a dog where heartworm infection is an unknown and THIS is why it is imperative that treatment for a dog who is suffering mature heartworm infestation be different from the usual drugs.

Worming tablets/chewables/medication is a TREATMENT, not a preventative. Heartworm tablets/chewables/injections is a TREATMENT, not a preventative. There have been a lot of negative reactions to the heartworm injectable. If your dog doesn't react well to heartworm preventative, you've just given a dose that will last the whole year through. Even during periods and climates where heartworm development isn't going to occur. So that's the equivalent to treating your dog with chemicals for something that s/he doesn't have. Dogs don't necessarily pick up worms every 3 months. Dogs' systems are designed to be able to cope with a mild worm burden. You can have stool samples checked by your Vet for worm burden.

How did you draw to that conclusion, Corvus? What is it that doesn't have you thinking that Erik is simply trying to assert himself because he thinks he can? Why would Erik become "socially anxious" because you're having a cuddle with Kivi? Or is your phrase "social anxiety displacement humping" another term for "dominance"? Not sure, because I know you call things by different names. ETA: My answer to the OP is "it depends". Depends on the dogs - whether the communication by one will be well enough received by the other and whether the deliverer of the communication is acting appropriately. I have a tendancy towards discouraging it and if necessary (eg if the communication isn't going to be well received and/or if the communication is OTT) I will step in to stop it. I don't permit it amongst dogs who have only just met.

When you look at pictures of these things they look like medieval torture devices. OH asked me once what a prong was and I pulled up a picture and he went "That looks cruel and painful." I had to agree. It does. Whether it is or isn't, it sure looks like it is. I don't blame people for knee-jerk reactions against them. They only work at all because they are aversive. It's a fair assumption given the look and the purpose that you would never want to use one. You would have to be introduced to them carefully to think otherwise. You're right, Corvus - they do look awful and many people judge them on looks without enquiring further. And yes, they work on the "aversive" (discomfort) factor. Just as check chains, head collars, no-pull harnesses etc do. Funnily enough (actually, "sadly" would be the operative word) people go for things such as head collars because they look more benign and don't give a second's thought about what they might be doing with them and how it might be affecting their dog. People do need to be introduced to them to think otherwise, but no more carefully than they SHOULD be introduced to any of the other training tools that are even more readily and easily available for purchase. In a way, the benefit of the PPCollar looking like a medieval torture device, whilst having the disadvantage that people shut their minds to it before they even understand it, has the advantage that people who get past that first bias and inadequate understanding are more conscientious of how they use it. Are the US people you know also "vehemently" against the other tools that you can also walk into any pet store and buy? I'm not against tools just because they can be bought via a pet store (or Supermarket !!! ) but I am against training gear being sold via places and by people who haven't got a clue about them. Even more commonly (I've never seen evidence of harm via the use of the PPCollar, even in lesser experienced hands) with head collars; etc.

Sydoo .... thanks for the thought. I haven't specifically gone out of my way to look at motorcycle gloves. I guess my assumption is that they would be more bulky than what I'd prefer. I 'feel' a lot through the lead and I don't want to lose that sensitivity. I also don't want to lose sensitivity so much so that I am not likely to notice the accidental dog tooth during tug, as it is part of training to teach the dog to mind your hands. Mainly what I want is a light protection that will stop my skin from tearing/getting damaged from knocks yet tough enough to withstand the accidental bites. I'll have a look at the motor cycle gloves via google, however I am dubious as to whether they would be suitable due to movement restriction and bulkiness. I'm also interested in knowing from Steve what design he has in mind for the ones he's planning to have available. ETA: You're right - the Motorcross ones don't appear that they'd be as bulky. In my travels I'll pop into a motorcycle gear shop when I pass one, to see them 'in the flesh'. Horse riding gloves (the soft leather every-day ones) were also ones that I had thought of getting as well. I have some ..... but somehow the pair have become separated and one is missing. They too, I think, would be good and I had thought about cutting off the fingers. Just never got around to it.

When I was a young teenager we moved home and with the new home came a dog that the Vendors of the house we bought didn't want to take with them. "Tiger" was his name. I'd say a short haired Border Collie x Blue Heeler. Anyway, he used to butt scoot. We had a fine but gravelly and very very long driveway on our new acreage property. And Tiger used to butt scoot his way up that. Our eyes would water just watching it. He was a bit of a 'smiler' too, so he'd do it with his big teethy grin on his face. Silly bugger. Lordy, he was a great dog. I wish I knew then what I know now. I think I would have appreciated him more. Or perhaps I did, but just miss him a lot. Sigh. We knew nothing of butt scooting possibly being an anal gland problem way back in those days, so poor Tiges just got wormed. But he didn't do it all the time and the mainstay diet was bones, so I suspect that the majority of time the anal glands fixed themselves.

So do head collars So do stop-pull harnesses So do check chains So do martingales PPCollars apply discomfort just like the rest of our training tools. The difference is that they apply it to the skin which is good, because that is where most of our sensitive nocireceptors are. Which means a desired response is more likely without the physical correction being required to be as strong as it might need to be with many of the other of the listed training tools. Which means less/no impact on muscle or skeletal structure yet also, in many instances, faster learning which is often for the good of the dog in the shorter and longer term. The Victorian Government, in the documentation back from when the PPCollar use was banned, confirmed that "There is no reported evidence of harm" from the use of the PPCollar. Can't say the same for the other of the freely available and accepted (by those who poo poo the PPCollar) training tools. All of which, mind, still have their place, but just like the PPCollar, need to be used with wisdom and empathy. But our current Victorian Government (who might not be the Govt come 27th November) went ahead and passed the ban, notwithstanding many objections to the regulation by the knowing public. As I mentioned - if you could read what I've read, it HAS to be a political move and nothing to do with the best interests of animal welfare at heart.

Again .... "use" and "wear" are two different things. Where in the OP's post does it say the use of the PPCollar hasn't worked? Was that an assumption or did I miss it somewhere? And remember that training never stops. I might walk my boy in a flat collar in certain environments and in certain situations, but in others I might switch back to his martingale in case it might be required. . Rather have it and not need it, that need it and not have it.

Could it be that she irritated it by scooting and now it's the irritation that causes it to become a cyclic condition? Perhaps try soothing the skin around and of her anus with some paw paw ointment for a few days or so, and see how she goes? The other thing I'm thinking is a possibility, is maybe she's got a poop to come that's got a bit of bone in it, that might be causing her some discomfort??? Or perhaps something that started, was inadvertently reinforced and now she gets attention from it where she otherwise might not? Just a rough guess at possibilities.

It hasn't got bad extension in it's mouth also. True, but just look athe the topline, reach and drive and you can see how stretched it's muscles are - awesome *Nods wisely like she knows what you're talking about* I do! . And I agree, RnL. The extension and the top carriage of the horse is stunning.

If the dog doesn't need one, then it only doesn't need to be used. Doesn't matter if the dog is wearing it in case it might ever be needed. But I think I know what you mean. I'm not against the use of training collar corrections, but some people rely on them too heavily.

Sorry, I'm in South Australia, I only joined the forum today and i think QLD was the default setting for state As per above, they are ONLY banned for use on dogs in Victoria.

Only place in the World where use of these collars are banned is ....... yup, Victoria . Shame, because for the sake of dog's welfare, there is definitely a place for these collars. Silly decision makers. It was a political move, IMO, not one where the welfare of dogs was truly at the core. So you're fine to use them in QLD. There are some Clubs that ban their use - but that is policy, not law. Oh - and I've heard several times from different sources that the RSPCA representative/s tell people the use of these collars are banned as well. Seems that there are those who either (a) don't know the laws when they should; or (b) prefer to let slip these porkpies because that's their opinion, as inexperienced or unknowledgeable as I might think it to be. Or both. ETA: KitKat is right. They are illegal to import without a licence. If you purchase from OS there stands a good chance that your purchase order will be ceased by Customs once it lands in Australia.