Erny

Oooohhh ............. then it will be mandatory that you visit WA and maybe other more northern regions such as upper QLD on a regular basis for "training purposes" :D Well done on your success

My understanding is that without this, the enzymes in the dog's stomach can't properly break the vegetation down and thus all the nutrients the vegies would otherwise supply remain unavailable. When a dog in the wild kills an animal (ie herbivore) and ingests the stomach, the vegetation in that stomach is already semi-broken down. By juicing (and adding the pulp back to the juice - which is the method I've used) or processing, you are helping to break down the vegies so that digestion of the dog can absorb as much of the available nutrients as possible.

I love your thinking, Rom .... Hope your shoulder's ok ...................... all in a good cause

I would be interested to read of what is written there, in relation to alleged physical damage to dogs by the prong collar. Of course, the studies need to be factual and based on "all things being equal" and by that I mean that any damage reported not be as the result of mis-use, unless it is clearly stated as being the case. Look forward to your reference to this, Anissa ........... finding factual and scientific info in this regard has been thin on the ground. Is it the same research/study as what Jeff Jones has posted here?

No Haven - it's all good . Provided the topic keeps in mind and curves back towards the subject of the "prong collar" then this side-line banter is ok. After all, the people who will be reading the thread will quite possibly be asking the same questions in their mind, and this will serve to help them understand, if they will.

Actually, Anissa .... it isn't. It is a punisher as well. Negative punishment can be quite a stressful experience for the dog. Admittedly its affect (other than the resultant behaviour) is not visible to the naked eye as is the application of a physical correction, but that doesn't make it less punishing. No-one likes punishment, including trainers. As Haven has said, Negative Punishment is often easier for humans to administer because it doesn't make them feel as bad. The other thing about negative punishment is that it has the potential to even be rewarding to the dog. For example if food is being offered as the reward to a dog who is full, withdrawal of the reward might be perceived as rewarding (except for labradors ). A dog who is tired from exercise might perceive the withdrawal of play as rewarding.

Compared with RB's dog, sheep would terrify me. Mr. Sooky La La dobe that he is . Emzy - I hope it all works out. IMO anyone who is afraid of being bitten (and there is no shame in that) deserves the respect from others to take sufficient control of their dog for the sake of confidence of that person, regardless of whether their own dog is friendly or not. Even if a dog IS friendly, when a person is worried/concerned/frightened/uncertain of a dog, we can't help but to emit signals of our discomfort to a dog. So taking control - regardless of "friendly dog" or not, is not only the least we can do to show respect and consideration to that person, but is also a good and pro-active consideration for the dog. I hope your BF and his family show you the respect I speak of - it is no matter that they might not agree, that's not the point. Good for you for exhibiting calm assertion. Sounds to me like you have more of a making of a 'pack' leader than what your BF's parents have shown their dog to date. Very scarey thought - the possibility of this sort of tragedy in the waiting is not going to prove to be a good outcome for the people concerned nor the dog ................... nor, for that matter, for the dog's owners.

I hope they consider that their dog's behaviour is a reflection on their relationship with her and that these unsociable behaviours seen in dogs are mostly because of the way humans communicate with them. I hope they care enough to take steps to learn how to 'speak' more clearly with their dog, so that she can become a less agitated and a less stressed dog than what she presently is. It is what we do around our dogs that causes the conflict within dogs and thus we need to change the things we do. Your BF's parents need help to know what to do to bring about the changes and so they may 'speak' dog more fluently and in a way that their dog understands them. I hope your BF's parents care enough about their dog to seek to work out the conflicts they have caused in their relationship with this girl. When I hear of these cases, I can't help myself from feeling unimpressed with the dogs' owners, rather than the dog itself. Good luck Emzy and stay safe. Insist that you won't be put into a situation where you can be bullied and/or bitten by this dog. If the dog bites again, they won't have done any favours to you, the dog, the dog's breed or dogs in general.

Thanks Jeff.

Isn't it legislated that a dog trained in "attack" has to be declared a dangerous dog simply for that fact? Or is the sport of sch exempt due to the manner in which it is trained? I haven't been personally involved in Sch sport myself, but I have a friend who is very committed to it with her dogs. I think the sport is quite disciplinary - ie it teaches the handlers strong responsibility (just like many people receive and learn the disciplines of Judo, Karate etc ..... I hope you all get my drift). I trust my friend for her judgement in relation to her dogs 100% and as a result I too trust her dogs .................................. moreso than I can trust numerous of the dogs who I come into contact with as a result of my work. I'm sorry that I don't have the required knowledge to contribute to your thread beyond the above, Reddog, but on the knowledge base that I have about the world of Schutzhund Sport, I hope it gains the recognition and acceptance you seek.

Yes

Emma - sorry to hear of the bite you took and I hope you're ok. This dog needs help. Your BF's parents need to seek the advice of a behaviourist and quickly - it's his owners that are the most likely cause of the problem. I am surprised that after all these warnings the Dobe gave, no-one in your BF's family stepped in to prevent it escalating to the behaviour that it has. You need to meet with as many known friendly dogs as possible. Dogs that people will and can competently control in a way that you can feel more confident. Join your Rotty up with a reputable dog school. This will double in purpose - it will be good for your Rotty girl, and good for you. Unless your BF's family take steps to have the Dobe in question under control when you are around so that this event cannot repeat itself, I'd be inclined to suggest you don't go there.

I'm glad to hear she is still out there trying - I haven't seen her for ages, so thought she'd stopped coming. Given that the sporn harness works by pressure on the nerves of the dog's front legs, I dont' understand why people are so opposed to the prong collar, which serves in the same or at least similar manner, ie by putting pressure on the nerves at skin depth at the dog's neck.

Wondering the same, PC. Although given the weather I can imagine the grounds would have been a bit sloppy - perhaps everyone's busy washing and drying off their dogs at the mo?

What a nice post, Willow .... thank you. I have no knowledge of your background nor with what dogs/dog behaviour (issues) you've had experience with, nor do I seek to ask it here. It is unneccessary to do so. Your acknowledgement that others of us have had (or seen others who have had) the good need for use of the prong collar is enough . In the time before the prong ban, I have worked with people and their dogs where but for this piece of equipment, were at the threshold of despair and hopelessness in their relationships with their dogs. Naturally, my (and others') objective was to remove the initial cause of the behaviour (eg lack of leadership). By the stage I got to see these people though, much of the dog's unwanted behaviour (and the reason people were driven to seek help) had become learnt. (Note: Remember too that many dogs are rescue dogs, without known history .... sometimes prior cause was indeterminable.) So there was duel work to be done - the first to address the cause and the second to address the resultant learnt behaviour. With the prong collar - it is not that it is a harsher tool than any other. IMO it is not. The action of the prong collar is different to that of any of the check chain or head collar. The prong produces response due to its manipulation of the skin - or more particularly, the skin's nonoceptive receptors. This produces an increased and more efficient response from the dog, without the training tool bearing (or risking to bare) a more severe (and often less productive) action against the deeper muscle tissue of the dog's neck. As a result, generally a lesser correction is required for a closer to maximum behaviour response. It is not always about the dog being massively large either. I witnessed many a fast and much sought after desireable response from Staffies wearing the prong, compared to their previous well (or over) tried other pieces of training equipment. Similarly, I have also worked with Border Collies, whose behaviour complexities and complications were not responsive to other equipment choices. I have worked with people who were the ones who sported the physical limitations which prevented them from being able to properly and effectively use other training tool types. One example was a person with a (from memory .... it was a long time ago) a kelpie x of sorts. The dog was quite a strong dog and although through previous training was reasonably responsive, its tendancy was towards over excitement easily triggered by various stimuli in its environment. Its owner ended up in a car accident, leaving her with very reduced strength or movement in her arms. Without the availability of the prong collar which in Victoria was still then a permitted and valuable training tool, this person - who had already suffered dearly as a result of the MVA, stood to lose her dog to the necessity of re-homing it with someone more physically capable. I also know of a dog who sported a genetic 'fault' the result of which was that it could not tolerate any form of collar which would create pressure across its trachea. The ONLY collar of any description the dog could cope with was the prong. Another dog had received a neck injury earlier in its life as the result of being hit by a car. Once again, the prong collar was the safest training equipment for use on this dog. Both of these dogs were small/medium sized dogs. I know of a lady who has owned GSP's all (or at least most) of her life. She came for help because the one living with her now was over exuberant and unmanageable on walks. A delightful dog it is, too - and very responsive. Within 15 minutes in the hands of a trainer, the dog was walking quite nicely and very respectful to its obedience commands. Certainly wonderful dog. The problem was that its owner had arthritis - not only, but especially worse, in her hands. The arthritis had worsened and the dog, being the wilful spirit that he is, was able to take advantage of his owner's limitation. We worked with the owner and this dog, over time, trying also the use of a head-collar. The owner was even less able to utilise this, given her dog's aversion to it. I really do believe this dog would have performed excellently for its owner if the prong ban currently in force had not prohibited its use. Unfortunately I won't know the outcome for this lady and her dog as after at least 12 months of effort (with comparitively smallish improvement), she no longer comes to class. No dogs that I know of have ever cringed or shown aversion to their prong collars (and in fairness, I could say the same of the dogs who I've known to have been worked in a check chain). It doesn't go to follow that just because the equipment is fitted that it needs to be applied. The faster a dog learns, the less frequently a correction needs to be applied and so you can go from a dog who always pulls, chuffs and chokes its way along a walk with no opportunity for reward for desired behaviour, to a dog happily walking with loose lead and otherwise impeded ................... and tonnes of ensuing reward . Willow - my own girl (now crossed the rainbow bridge .... bless her) did not need the use of a prong collar. I used a check chain on her (admittedly - this was prior to my knowledge and understanding of a prong) and in her lifetime with me, I could count the number of physical corrections she ever required, on one hand, with fingers left over. So sensitive was she that a verbal correction would weigh more heavily than a physical one. Whilst I usually walked her out on a check chain, I cannot recall in the last few years of her life, needing to use it. But it was there in case it was needed. This is what I mean by not having to activate the equipment (in the case of this thread, the prong collar) just because it is on the dog. Thanks again Willow, for your contribution to this thread. I understand and agree that each person has and is entitled to their own views. You have been big enough to acknowledge though there are people out there who due to their own personal circumstances as well as those of their dogs, may well be in a completely different situation demanding an alternative set of views that you can recognise the validity of. I appreciate your open mindedness. This is what makes the world go around.

Rom - what a fantastic analogy. Well done. Do you mind if I was to use that from time to time, with all due credit to you?

Hi Willow . And thank you for coming here. Please know that your opinion is as valued as anyone elses' is and has been in this thread. IMO, it's all about opening minds to both sides of the equation and looking at the bigger picture. I agree that behavioural modification is about "getting inside the dog's head" .... in other words, working at an emotional level rather than just the resultant apparent behaviour level. But a power chain can be used to halt a behaviour that might otherwise have become an ingrained habitual one. Once achieving that 'halt', the dog is often more open to learning other ways. Obviously what is done and when depends on what the behaviour issue is - or more particularly the cause. Whatever a behavioural issue is, application of correction only (regardless of the equipment style being used) is NOT by itself going to fix it, but I have seen many many cases where it's made the start that is required. Although my post serves to counter yours, its intent is discussional only. Please don't be afraid or embarressed to counter my counter :D :D ....... Your return will be welcome - thank you for venturing in and having the courage to be the first.

A *bump* for more submissions via email, for those who recognise the benefits of and want to see the legislation changed. NSW people (and other States, where the power chain is not banned) - we need you.

A *bump* if you will.

Good luck. Hope you have a great day, although maybe you'll need to wear your golloshes/wellies???? Insist you let us know how it goes - will be looking for an up-dated post come Sunday night or Monday at the latest.

In the "teaching phase" it's all 'positive reward' based training anyway. A 'clicker' is simply a marker for the correct behaviour - a verbal marker word can also be used. As to whether you use clicker or not is a personal choice and should be one that works best for your dog and yourself. If you don't use clicker now, it's not to say that it can't be introduced later, and vice versa. I am not shy of using a combination of training methods, depending on what I'm trying to achieve. I will use compulsion and although many people will aghast at the word "compulsion" thinking it's a matter of wrestling your dog into position, it can be as simple and gentle as this : With the pup/dog still in teaching phase, there might be times when the puppy/dog offers the behaviour and whether or not I've been using another method to teach it, I might chose to reward the offered behaviour - whether it was intended by the pup or not. This is "shaping". And there are times - even with the same pup/dog that I have used some compulsion work with, where I might use a lure to achieve the position I seek (being mindful not to get stuck on "lure" - this should only be used very briefly so as not to become "bribing"). One of the important things to be mindful of, regardless of which or any of the teaching methods you use, is your timing of the command. If you give a command, you want to know that the pup WILL follow with the appropriate behaviour, otherwise the command you use runs the risk of remaining meaningless to the pup. Just as important is the timing and value of your reward and your overall consistency (as already mentioned by Reddog above). If you seek to train your pup/dog in "drive", you would want to work towards building the drive in your pup and there are smallish exercises to do for a pup in the early teaching phases for this, although you do need to be disciplined on what you do and allow the pup to have in between training exercises. Check in on Steve (K9 Force) in this respect, as he has a knack far superior to mine as to explaining what and when to do in this respect than I do. I find it easier to demonstrate this than explain. And really important is to have fun.

Yes - its use is banned in Victoria. Refer "Prong Collars - Discussion Welcome" thread and also Prong Collars - Submission to Change Victorian Legislation thread - both currently running.

Moreover that it might be confiscated by customs. You need a permit to import them.

Nytewynd Go to Steve (K9 Force)'s website. I have a link for his website at the bottom of my website, which you can get to via the link below. Or, of course, you could google it.

Amongst other things, work on "Pack Drive". Make yourself seen as the controller of ALL valuable resources. And I agree - go for a consultation. If you're in Sydney (sorry - I didn't look to see if your location was listed before I began posting) then yes, Steve at K9 Force would be a good option.