Erny

It might be less confusing if people know which dog Sniffy is and which dog Pepe is.

Is the "regular obedience training" you have, with a dog school or other trainer? IMO a good trainer would be able to assist you greatly and fairly quickly with your difficulties.

On the assumption that your group has had some sort of pack heirarchy sorting (and without knowing your dogs I would have no idea as to whether this is the case), don't believe for a second that they are "not speaking" to each other. In fact, all of their interactions such as they are, would be speaking volumes to each other. There are some sections in your post that are difficult to make sense of though - especially as we are unfamiliar with your dogs.

Arya and Tapferhund ..... I agree that ANY piece of equipment needs to be used properly for it not to be abused. I often see head-collars being used incorrectly as well, and this makes me cringe. But, without denying that use of any equipment needs to be applied properly, I'd like to say there is something I have noted (generally speaking) and that is that I have seen far less abuse of the prong because (again, generally speaking) the dogs are more responsive to the prong and this leads to the handler using it less - or at least less intensively. I often see quite the opposite with the head-collar or the check chain. In turn for the dogs' increased responsiveness, it opens a wider window of opportunity for the dog to receive praise more often for more respectful and obedient behaviour. Again, I have often seen quite the opposite with the head-collar or the check chain.

RB - It MIGHT be the result of having done so much work on the sit in the "sit-stay" exercise that he's thinking THAT's what he needs to do to 'be right' (and get good things ). I don't think it's so much that he's "forgotten" drop, but that he's not so sure that "drop" is really to his advantage. Of course - it COULD be a disobedience, but from what I saw of him last week I can't help feeling it is more a case of him not being clear on what you require of him. Hard to tell without seeing him but we will definately address this at this week's session. Fantastic that you're progressing so well otherwise. Well done - sounds like you've really been putting in the yacka. Don't worry about the "drop" issue - we'll fix it at the lesson. ;)

Absolutely I do. Although it would be good if those stories could be emailed to me (see other current "prong thread" I started). Although I still intend to print this thread off when it has had all the time it needs, it really was intended to be one of those threads where 'both sides of the fence' could argue it out about what they see as the 'good, bad and ugly' of the prong. It seems no-one from that 'other side of fence' has anything to say. This is not intended to goad for an argument - one of the purposes of this thread is to show the government that the complete submission is not a one-sided view and that opposing views have been invited. If someone does post here with an opposing view on the prong, please keep it nice and conversational guys ..... it's the 'discussion' that will comprise the educational side of things. Nothing else. In the meantime, if you want to post stories here that's fine. But individual emails will service the submission better. If you have posted a story here but don't mind about emailing, feel free to "cut and paste" and send it to me at [email protected] Thanks for your interest, everyone. And what I don't understand about this is that ANYONE who really wanted to cause damage/inflict cruelty to their dog can (unfortunately and sadly) do so easily. A ban on the prong doesn't prevent that. But the ban does prevent the use of an otherwise very good training tool.

Due to training commitments, I doubt I'll be able to get there, IR. But I wish you the best of luck and hope the day is, overall, an enjoyable one for everbody.

Ditto. On its own, I am not confident of its effectiveness. IMO (from what I've heard from others - trainers and non-trainers alike) coupling a behaviour modification program with Rescue Remedy can increase its effectiveness and/or help in the program. But not all the time - depends on the dog.

Good thinking. Steven Lindsay makes two references in Volume 3 of this books. Unfortunately what he writes doesn't add much to the submission - more it talks in brief of how they are used. Although that in itself could be noted in reference in the submission to govt. Reading through his own list of references I could only find one article that might have had anything to do with prongs, but unfortunately it ended up being a comparison of the flat collar and a head-collar. There may well be some information in any one of the many many references given by Steven, but the titles that I've glanced at don't really give a hint this is the case. Thank you. I will check that up. My mind and eyes are really tired tonight - I'm sure I have read about what equipment the Aussie Police Dogs wear in training, but I can't rightly remember just now. Thanks Am. Good suggestions.

I believe that what MsJames intended to mean actually relates to the NILIF program (ie asking the dog for a behaviour rather than giving it something good for free). If the dog begins and continues to offer the behaviour without being asked because it knows it will be rewarded for it, then the dog can be beginning to dictate a behaviour from the human on ITS terms, rather than the other way around. Consequently it is better to not reward the offered (but unrequested) behaviour and instead request a different behaviour. This being said on the basis that the dog is past the teaching phase of the original behaviour offered.

;) No, seriously - that's ok. In the next 2 - 3 weeks is fine.

Thanks Rom. Only a few submissions/reports/stores have come in so far - I'd love to receive a stack more. Some things came up over the last week which has prevented me from dedicating my time to this project - but that's life, and that's why I am not going to place a dead-line on getting the official submission completed, other than to say I'd like it to be completed as soon as possible. But to this end, I am reliant of submissions .... lots and lots of them, from others who have something to say about it. Thanks for bumping this thread up - it's something I've been meaning and intended to do. In the next couple of weeks I intend to contact another group and also one or two of the contacts that have been recommended to me. Hoping to get a good amount of activity from them. But as I say - at the moment the response via DOL has been very thin on the ground. But we all have busy lives - there is still time. Erny

:D

Jesomil And always look and work for something 'more' once the dog knows the obedience commands. This is also what makes it more fun - for owner and for dog. As to what you do and in what sequences and blends depends on what your dog already knows, but other than that is limited only by your own imagination. If you were taught 1 + 1 = 2 and then for the rest of your life you were asked and tested on it over and over, it would quickly become boring too. Variety and challenges are the spice of life . Keep your dogs thinking by keeping yourselves thinking.

In this, I do see the practicalities that can be attributed to 'real life' - well, at least part-way assimilated to it anyway. I often used a sit or drop stay with my girl. I've used it at an off-leash park so that I could literally body-guard her from a seemingly ownerless dog who was trying to "go" her. I've used it so I could catch another "ownerless" dog in another park. I've used it so I could go over to speak to a person and their dog, but didn't want Kal in too close to that dog. I've used it to let people in the gateway to my property so that she didn't accidentally get in the way. The "line-up" of other dogs and handlers bears some reflection on a dog in "stay" when other dogs are around and when other people are around (distractions). I've used the sit and drop stay whilst other owners recall their dogs to them from that line up. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this type of training and it can apply itself in practical ways in 'real life', provided that in the training "real life" assimilies are proofed for. But with the "heel" - I don't see the practicalities of a dog who can't see what it might be walking into or falling over, for the want of looking to the clouds. I don't see the practicalities of a dog who is working in opposition to its natural skeletal and muscular design. I don't see the practicalities of a dog who 'wraps' to the extent that the owner is inhibited in any way (physically and mentally).

Cosmolo ..... regardless of ribbons, trophies or not ...... glad you were happy with Cosmo's performances on the day. That's what's important. Congratulations. I think the 'bow' instead of the 'stand' would have cracked a smile from me too. Even though it was the wrong move, it would seem that Cosmo was trying to get things right. :D A friend's dog who is high up in the agility comp ladder does some funny but quirky things at times too. On one occasion, he saw someone he recognised (and obviously loved), ran out of the ring part way through the agility course, greeted this person then ran straight back in to finish the course beautifully. DQ'd of course, but his owner was happy with what he did do inside the ring, laughed about the 'greeting' event, although was mindful of it in future trials.

I have fed the "Active Manuka Honey". Yes - it was expensive. $15.00 for a smallish jar (and that was about 7 years ago). But I used it for me as well as for Kal and it lasted me for years. Although I generally only used it when it was needed (eg. sore throats; stomach upsets; lethargic symptoms; etc.) not for everyday use. (I admit I snuck a bit for the odd sandwich now and again .) I used it for a foster pup with suspected Canine Cough too. Worked brilliantly and very quickly. I've also used it on the occasional wound (for me and the dog). A definate "must have" for the medical cabinet. But I agree - expensive for everyday use.

IT might be an old thread, but it's a goodie . Actually, there have been some more recent contributions/posts which you might find of interest, Daccies. Not a heap of information on what you ask about, but it does at least venture towards your question here. From memory, there is also a link to the Superloin website which does discuss the fact they are working on a similar implant for females. I couldn't find a lot of info there about it, but perhaps it will lead you in the direction you seek. If you do find out additional info on it would you mind posting it on the original thread (the link for which I've given above ie "IT") for us to also read? .... It's great to have a thread with compiled information that people can go to without having to search a hundred different threads along the way. Makes it handy.

I would not hesitate to recommend Trish at Four Paws K9 Training either.

I'm glad you brought this thread back up because I was going to post to say that your young Dobe isn't as 'impossible' as I was first given to believe . He's a lovely, very responsive dog. I think you've done a very good job with him in what he currently knows . All I am doing is tweaking here and there, to help him understand a little more clearly on what you want from him, as well as extending on his current skills to give you more, and working for reliability. It was an enjoyable lesson and the hour flew by very quickly. You worked hard ......... I like that. :D

I love still shots like these. To watch the work in motion is fantastic .... but so much happens so fast that much of the detail we see in these still shots is lost. I agree - the photography is awesome.

I don't trial and would not have thought of this "double handling" occurring ..... or even being a possibility. A bit sad that competition can bring out the worst in some people. They're only cheating themselves and their dogs. But I guess the thought wouldn't matter to them. Sadly, 'cheating' happens in many sports. The dog world is not alone there.

My thoughts too Sidoney. It almost gives me a headache ..... seeing dogs carrying (or attempting to carry) their necks in a 90 degree angle upwards, continuously over a period. And as the saying goes .... "the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone", I would not be the least surprised if this unnatural carriage has the potential to/does upset the fine tuned balance of animal physique.

Double post

Luka - you didn't cause a fuss. You had a valid question which deserved explanation. If you don't receive or understand the explanation sought, feel free to post back here or PM me if you feel more comfortable. I think the main difference is that you can join with a dog school knowing it comprises of trainers ALL of whom have successfully undertaken and completed the NDTF course (a large component of which deals with dog psychology and behaviour) and so you have the comfort of knowing that these people can help not only to teach the usual obedience routines/skills but also help identify behaviours that would otherwise become problematic and/or assist in behavioural modification techniques for existing problematic behaviours. There are other schools who do have very good instructors and who may also possess a very sound knowledge and capabilities of assisting in the behavioural side of matters as well. Or they may have instructors who are brilliant at teaching you to train for obedience skills, but don't possess a broad knowledge of behaviour, genetic potential for behaviour etc. etc. And there are others who might not possess either. Don't be afraid to ask them questions of their experience/s and/or knowledge base. It's not just about how many years experience they have, but also about how diverse their experiences are. Ask if the people with the required/desired experience are the people with whom you'll be in contact in the various classes and class levels you'll be attending. Ask around of others (as you've done here). Take into account your own knowledge base and be guided by those who you feel will be best able to assist you and your pup overall. Never feel bullied into going to one place or the other. Simply weigh up what people have to say and work to recognise the sense of what they say and assess what feels the best for you - not only for now but as a foundation for later.