Erny

YB - for the same reasons, I use "yes" as a marker too. Some people are adept with being able to hold the clicker ..... I prefer my hands to be free. Between the leash, the "prey toy", I feel a bit 'crowded' by having to hold a clicker too. I tried tying one around my wrist, at one stage, but still found I was fumbling to try to grab it .... threw my timing way out.

Spot on .... and if they're aware of what can happen, they might be more inclined to seek some pro advice before they begin using them.

Can you dig these up and post, Rusky? I personally haven't experienced or seen check chain injuries .... I don't doubt they happen though. But I have seen frequent 'surface' injuries incurred by headcollars such as rubbing skin to the point of bleeding across the muzzle.

Well, in fact someone has done just that earlier on in this thread but none of the trainers replied to her. I wonder why that was. I doubt we will have new people bother to follow her lead in view of that. I did suggest, as did others, that questions pertaining to tips/suggestions to help specific problems with "pulling" dogs be posted in another thread ... having said that, I couldn't find the person who asked a specific question. Chances are, I've missed it, although I've glanced back over. Perhaps if he/she is having problems and would like to elaborate in a new thread on what he/she is doing, we can jump in there and help (as we often do), or PM one of us, as HR has suggested. ETA: Have picked up the new thread - she'll be starting training soon, but I am PMing her ... Actually, Anne - Kelpie-i gave you your answer some time back .... this is her quote: Well, actually, Anne - your request for advice was very general (on many more than one occasion). These are a few:- Then: This was answered by a number of susequent posts: but subsequently ignored ... How can we give a "tip" when we don't yet know what the person is already doing and where they are still having problems and what their relationship with their dog is? The following is hardly a compliment Anne - and if it's not "personal", who is directed to? I merely mentioned that I had experience and expertise as an explanation as to perhaps why I don't seem to have any problems with quickly teaching a dog not to pull. I didn't realise that constituted "beating my chest". Feels a bit like another "personal attack" to me. I don't see any where we (assuming we're the "chest beaters" you refer to, lol) have put down dog owners who have pulling dogs. Another slight to those of us here who responded with good intention? I'm no longer sure what your contributions are to this thread is, Anne, other than continuance of the "ping pong" game you weren't interested in .... The first arrow came from whose bow? I think you've been unfair in your estimations of the trainers who contribute to DOL.

I think we did reach this point early in the thread and we're all pretty much in agreement on this score. Good on you for your work in progress, Sas. May I ask which tool you switched to?

Me too please, HR!

Kelpie-i and Haven - well posted. Perhaps, Anne, it would be best to allow those who do have "pulling" problems to ask their own questions - that way, instead of it coming across from you as wanting the trainers to give explanation from A-Z over the net, we can be better informed of what those 'others' you refer to are doing and what contributing factors are involved when their dogs pull and provide, where possible, specific tips/suggestions. And perhaps it could be done via a different thread (although, as Haven has said, these sorts of discussions have been done in length in a multitude of threads and could be searched for on DOL to see if any of the explanations therein fit), rather than one that has merely asked for the opinions of individuals in relation to head collars. I also don't think we (trainers) alluded to people who use head collars being fools (from what I can see, that's been your interpretation) - but rather that they perhaps hadn't developed the correct technique to be able to use any other. I don't think I could teach technique with the written word .... at least, not eloquently and not in a way which might not be misunderstood. Before I was taught (by being instructed, shown and corrected where appropriate), I couldn't use other tools properly either, and, had I a dog that pulled I otherwise might have purchased a headcollar. That wouldn't make me a fool. It would've just meant I hadn't learnt yet. In the absence of seeing your dog and the methods you used and how they were applied, I find this difficult to answer, other than this dog may well have been more willful than the others; more reactive to stimuli than the others; had a different perception of your leadership than the others ..... "Not walking" doesn't have much to do with it - it's the possibility that the dog could react towards a stimuli and lunge forward and take you by surprise, that remains a risk.

Don't fash yourself, HR ..... that's just your gorilla genetics showing through .... ;) Actually, I think Anne was referring to me, 'cause I said something about experience/expertise. Although I only meant it as inference to support my opinion that head collars have a place for those that are not able to attain the degree of control to allow them to start training ....

Hi Chezzyr. Raw is better, but to help the dog break it down and absorb the nutrients more efficiently, either finely grate the vegies or blend them. Of course, if your dogs would enjoy munching on a whole carrot (as they might a bone) that's good too (provided you haven't got one like mine that just swallows chunks too large for her gullet ) As for the dry dog food/bikkies - they're probably least like dog food than any, when you think about what dogs would normally chose to eat if in the wild. I wouldn't give your dogs a long time to eat either - as one said ... 20 minutes, then put the food away. You could perhaps give a second chance an hour or so later, but if not, then the next day. Whilst you mightn't have had luck with this with your previous dog, it may well work with these ones. ;)

There's a dog dentist at the Hallam Veterinary Clinic. Kal had a "filling" in one of hers once, by him. Couldn't tell you if good or bad, because I don't know much about dog teeth (other than to look for health issues), but perhaps others have heard of these people?

K9: yes, I provide accurate info, people make their own law choices. K9 - would you not be concerned that some people would report your use of the banned tools (if you were in Victoria, for instance), leaving you open for prosecution? Perhaps your braver or richer than I am ...... or both!

Splitting hairs, I know, but would be a case of "learnt" rather than "knew".... ;) I have emailed the ANKC (no response yet ) suggesting they allow the equivalent of "hors concours" in their various trials (eg. obedience; agility). They allow this with horses in dressage comps. It's an opportunity to work your animal in a trial environment, but in a training capacity. You are judged, faulted, scored etc. etc. in exactly the same way as usual, but your points are not tallied with the final calculations and you don't stand to win awards, merits etc. I think these opportunities would assist many with animals who have learnt that the ring is a place where certain behaviours are not insisted upon.

In circumstances where you are working with dogs other than your own, would you also openly and freely advocate and sell, and/or guide your clients to buy too?

I agree with this statement. And this is not a problem confined to one tool only. Too true, however, in my experience, less likely and less frequently extended to tools such as check chains (eg) as merely stopping and holding the leash taught does not necessarily alter the unwanted 'pulling' behaviour and can still result in the handler being pulled along - so the handler actually has to work (ie train). I hear where you're coming from, but I think we need to agree to disagree, to an extent, on the 'human nature' component of our discussion - afterall, isn't it to be expected that we'd become more familiar with a method that (overall) generally works better than others, simply because we then use it the most?

Sidoney - Spot on, IMO. And, if a problem exists:- the more severe the problem, the more clear and exaggerated NILIF (and other "leadership" measures) should be, me thinks.

I disagree that it's just a matter of "human nature" - IMO a good trainer would hold those preferences as a result of having worked with the various tools available, evaluated the success in terms of efficiency of training, reliability of the training, effect/affect on the dog (physically and emotionally). (Admittedly, I've never trained on harness - haven't had the need - I only know what I've read, on that score. But if the need did arise ..... ?) I don't believe that a good trainer has a preference to any tool, or any training method for that matter, unless the above has (generally) been proven in reference to the above. And a good trainer will have as many tools and methods in their "tool box" because dogs are individuals. Having said that, I personally have yet had the need to utilise a head collar on any of the dogs I've been asked to train, to achieve better results. As has been pointed out in other posts (mine inclusive, if I recall), some handlers might need the headcollar to achieve the control necessary to permit further training. Unfortunately, for many (not all, mind), once they have the control they seek, the training aspect rarely progresses and the dog's behaviour is merely suppressed, but not remedied.

Hey HR! You suggesting you might expect less from a "Ridgy" (eg) person?

K9 - Without re-quoting your last post, I agree. And I think this is what most have implied/said in their individual posts.

For the most part, I don't think we have an issue, generally, in this ..... My pay is often that "buzz" from seeing dog/handler achievement - you and I touched on that subject not long ago, K9 ;) . If "buzz"s were money - THEN I'd be rich - I count myself fortunate for those experiences. Most of us (trainers) have on many occasions worked with people (in person) and not charged, for the love of dogs. I have more difficulty in the concept of "net" training. There appears, in this thread, to be an insistant expectation from some that it's easy for us to tell them what to do over the net, and just as easy for them to apply our written suggestions correctly. If it were all that easy, I don't think they'd be having the difficult problems they express in the first place. And we'd only ever be required to write it once. The training forum in DOL would then become very quiet and book sales would diminish alarmingly! And dog training wouldn't be half as interesting .......

Anne - you've already mentioned that you have your social walking techniques under control and are achieving. I'm not sure why you're the one who is seeking trainers to "give tips". To give assistance, a person who is still having problems would need to post, giving a completely FULL description of everything he/she is doing, has done, how they're doing, what they're doing when it's happening, what they're doing when it's not. MAYBE (emphasise on the word, not yelling) then, we can give a tip or two for them to try. And perhaps in a different thread, as I don't think this was the original topic subject. I'm not sure what "tips" you want, seeing as you don't seem to have any issues.

Thanks Amhailte. Yes, that's her. I told you about that lady I met in the park who took her photo? That's one of the shots. And HR kindly fixed it so I was able to have it as my avatar. Sorry for the hi-jack ....

Anne - I've been on DOL for about one year and if you take the time to read through many threads over the last year or so you'll identify that many trainers have contributed and assisted people who have sought help in respect to varying matters, ranging from behaviour through to training. They have done so willingly and with the pure desire to assist where they can, albeit without obligation to do so. It remains true that many identify the explanation of training techniques a simple matter, when, in reality, it is not, merely due to the fact, as other DOLers have posted here, that what information is posted is often only what the dog owner sees ... and that's not always (and is often not) the whole picture. This thread, as I understood it, was to attract comments and thoughts, for the main part, on Headcollars. Some people (trainers inclusive) have responded by mentioning that, in their experience, they can achieve a better result faster without the use of headcollars. I don't believe it was a thread that then demanded each poster justify their thoughts by giving a full on training post. When you posted to my response, I admit I felt goaded by you .... as if I was somehow obliged to enter into a full blown training lesson on "walking on loose lead". At the time, I was affronted by your attitude, but in any case was too weary to give it the time and energy it would take to meet what seemed to be your demands. Perhaps, as often occurs on DOL, the "tone" of your posts have been misconstrued, but they have come across to me as a challenge, rather than a sincere request for advice of the methods that work for us. Not that we can't meet challenges, but sometimes our energies are required elsewhere. Trainers do what they can to help, but most, if not all of us, have mentioned at some time or other that training over the internet is not the way to go, and is difficult and open to misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Sometimes I think to myself "I really need to see the dog" ..... observation tells a trainer alot about the relationship between dog and handler; temperament etc. etc., to be able to then best deliver advice as to the manner in which you might best achieve your goal. Your "invitation" to tell you how we train has not, IMO, been the most attractive, as I get the feeling that if you don't agree, it will only serve for you (and perhaps others here) to flame us for it. We have our respective methods. They work for us and the dogs we work with .... we don't have to justify it nor spend the time doing so. That you now post protest that we are not donating our services to you evidences, IMO, your belief that you are entitled to the same, rather than appreciating it when we do have the time to deliver to your needs. Perhaps if your posts were more inquisitive than provocative and demanding, attempt to give you some helpful information would be more forthcoming. You've mentioned that your dog walks nicely for you and that you have achieved control with the methods you use. That's great, and I'm glad it's worked for you. But if you seek to change the methods and/or tools you use, it's mosttimes best and easier for all concerned if you have a lesson or two in person.

Sometimes this is just the affects of GA wearing off. In those cases, I think it's more a worry to us, than it is to our dogs (my girl does that when she's had an op, and appears to hallucinate for a little while .... ) Hope Ollie is ok.

K9 has mentioned, earlier, that once a dog has received a +value factor, there's no going back, so you wouldn't be able to start the neutralisation program in so far as it relates to your dog/dog query. If you're going to neutralise your dog, it needs to start from a puppy. What you (or anyone else) could do, though, is work up in drive and increase your leadership value.

Oh Sidoney - Great news!. Was looking for a post from you Friday (hoping for early news). What a relief. ................... we do worry, so, don't we?