Erny

You dag! ...

Deleted because I made a "politically incorrect" comment .... and I'm tired of getting flamed.

What Haven said. Great answer!

CF - why don't you make Murray's dinner, his treats? And if he doesn't get to finish all his allocated "dinner", then finish up on a nice recall at home and give him the balance.

Did I do it? Eeegads! My word! I've got it! Didn't know about the "close all tags". Thanks Haven! Sorry for the hi-jack .... returning to normal transmission .....

Alot. However, that's a fault of the handler/owner .... not the equipment. I'm not a fan of the headcollar (personally), probably because I have the experience and expertise (as many others do) to very quickly teach a dog not to pull, using other tools and methods. But I agree - if the headcollar will provide a handler who is otherwise going to 'give-up' on the whole deal (dog and all, sometimes!), with sufficient control to get the team (dog/owner) up and walking again, then it has a place. Consequently, as a trainer and instructor, I make a point of researching (for better understanding of their concepts and proper use) and practicing with headcollars to be better able to at least help those who have elected to utilise them on their own dogs. ETA: But I strongly urge these people to continue to work for improvement, and that includes weaning off from having to use the head-collar to maintain control.

Well, ..... at the risk of sending us too off topic (I'm sure we'll manage to return ) can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong when I try to change the font colour? I use the buttons at the top - have typed in the middle of and after, but no difference.

That is a very good explaination, Erny. I understand completely. Thank-you! Thank you Leema .... it's from my own perspective of the given situations, and that's the way I would see it, but I don't know if anyone with more expertise would have a different view.

CF - first, may I ask what you do with the dogs when you're home, and when you get home? Do you give heaps of attention; pat them when they want a pat; make them do things for you before they get anything from you?

If I may attempt a suitable answer :- Many unwanted behaviours exhibited by dogs are actually "normal" in the wild and, in the wild, would not be seen as a "problem behaviour". Most problem behaviours exhibited these days are only "problems" due to our own domestic requirements and social standards. Therefore, I doubt that a "neutralisation" program such as K9 describes would be necessary in the wild. Hence, it would IMO be inappropriate to draw comparison between pups in a wild dog pack to those required to live in our domesticated environments. Neutralisation is a programmatic method that can be used to chanel and mould a dog's instinctive behaviour and goals into a behaviour more suitable for domestic life situations. Edited because I think this wording is a bit clearer than my first attempt. I hope so!

Sorry Alison .... I've probably got the whole thing cross-wired - follow me and I'm sure to get you lost. My road navigational skills are similar !!! :rolleyes:

this would assume the fear aggressive dog is neither neutralised to your dog, nor preferring to ignore through avoidance, in which case the fear aggressive dog would have no interest in your dog. This would then serve as an exercise with desensitisation qualities ..... ????

I would assume that the "fear aggressive dog" having received no reaction from your GSD and hence no value, would become neutralised ...... This would be bringing the value up from a negative, to a "0". ?????

Railway stations Shopping Malls (if pup is small/young enough to carry in a shopping bag set up) In the proximity of eg. Luna Park (hearing all the noises, screams) Airports (where allowed)

YB - If I might hesitantly offer an unqualified answer, IMO I don't think the dog has "neutralised" if you have to make such an effort to re-gain the dog's attention. But I think your question was the same as what I asked earlier. K9's answer was that neutralisation to that distracting stimulus would then not occur, as it now has a 'value'. However, for the purposes of training, either pick up the leash to get the dog over to you and reward for coming, or if appropriate for the moment, ignore and reward the dog when it looks away from the stimuli and back over to you. Hope I accurately reiterated your responses, K9.

K9: Beagles arent designed to sniff other dogs.. lol.. you dont remove the sniff desire, but reward it with things yopu have the dog sniff... Thank you for the responses, K9 ... although in essence neutralisation seems to be a fairly simple concept, they cleared up a number of foggy areas for me. As for my comment using a Beagle as an example, I was thinking about the Beagles' natural fettish in following a scent on the ground, which often seems to become the more valued activity over that of the company of the owner. I acknowledge that there is often recall training fault involved, but am I stretching my imagination too far to suggest that neutralisation to the activity of scenting could be possible, given that we can hardly control the power of the scent? I feel I may be bordering on the ridiculous, here ... sorry - just exploratory thinking.

Hi Amhailte - In my 'imaginary' scenario, I'm not picturing another dog jumping on my dog's head so much as merely being in close enough proximity (with no responsible owner to be able to call it away) for my dog to find it 'engaging' enough to want to interact with it. The fact that my dog wants to interact .... does that mean my dog's not neutralised? Or is it only if my dog won't call away from the other dog that means my dog is not neutralised? (Assuming other recall training is in place.) I've got a feeling I'm getting myself tangled up here .... so no wonder I might be confusing others ....

Thanks guys .... I appreciate your responses. I'm aware of the effort that needs to be taken to re-direct focus back to you, but I'm thinking on the "neutralisation" factor. In the hypothetical I set up, obviously neutralisation has not occurred. I'm pondering on whether this is a case of having done everything properly but the dog I have (hypothetically) is genetically engineered to be a "doggy" dog (as I think Kelpie-i referred to) and neutralisation is therefore perhaps less or unlikely to occur, or whether I should go back and spend more time "neutralising". That brings me to wonder when a handler might/should "accept" the level of neutralisation achieved, even if it is less than ideal. And it makes me ponder about how to manage the program with a dog who is genetically engineered to "sniff" and gets his buzz out of that ... eg. Beagle.

Edited .... 'cause I just caught on to what Lablover was saying. My dumb ..

Feels like I'm off topic now and don't mean to interrupt a good discussion about 'drives' .... but swinging back to the socialisation & neutralisation program ... Hypothetical: You've followed the program to a point that you believe your dog's ready to take out into a lesser controlled environment. An unfamiliar off-leash dog comes along and your dog exhibits the posturing expressive of a dog desiring to engage in strong playful and/or exploritory interaction .... or has perhaps already committed itself to this activity. You acknowledge your handler error, but the fact that your dog has not elected to ignore the other dog, or be satisfied with a precursory sniff, surprises you. What should your reaction in relation to the dog be? Do you ignore the dog's focused attention on the other dog, manually take back control, go home, hit self on head and re-trace the steps in the program? I've read all the posts, but we're into 13 pages. Sorry if this has already been covered - perhaps I've missed it somewhere.

I guess I'm close enough to the venue to be able to nick her back home if necessary ..... I'll just mention that she is 12 years old, now though ... She'll chase a rabbit .. if it runs (and even then, will give up - the drive is not strong at all). She'll do that with cats too - although they normally have her sussed and stand their ground, so she stops. Not into toys at all. (Except twice - she did a "whizzy" with a tennis ball, but most of the time I can't even get her interested in it.) And if I throw anything, she gives me a 'shrugging' look as if to say "hey, well if you didn't want it, why should I?" She won't hold anything in her mouth, except for a bone. I even soaked a 'toy' in chicken broth to encourage her to 'take it' ... she licked it, but that was all. Food in a kong? If it's too hard to get out, she gives up. She is food driven, save for if she becomes too nervous. I'm thinking she has a strong 'pack' drive (ie to me) ??? Save for my efforts to achieve some drive, all my work has been based on socialisation and confidence building, desensitisation and leadership (and, of course .. obedience skills.) But I'd be happy for your opinion and comments - We'll either achieve another step further in progress, or you'll confirm that I'm already doing what anybody could. Either way, I'll be greatful.

Using a dog, as your demo, we trust ....

Just caught up on all the posts over the last 24 hours ... wow! Great thread. Haven't contributed alot, as many have asked the questions that have popped in my head, and then subsequently answered by K9. Thank you for not allowing a really informative discussion to degenerate - I'm amazed how many don't well tolerate the possibility that there is another, and possibly better way. And can you imagine how many less unforturnate dog/dog and dog/human incidences would occur if K9's socialisation and neutralisation program is as successful as it seems? (Not doubting you, K9 .... but I'm one that needs to read, listen, see and try. Reads and sounds great so far ....). Pity some will close their minds, eyes and ears to it so quickly. My dog is similar in many ways to the description Haven has posted of hers (no drive, weak on nerve). I sit here and wish that I could race straight out and work her in the drives as you mention and envy those who have the opportunity. I'm also torn between wanting to bring her on the 18th, to see if you can achieve with her what I cannot .... or leaving her home as I wonder if she really needs the stress of the outing. Of late, the latter usually wins out.

With you on this, Myszka ....