Erny

That's good, if it's working for you, LuvMyBc. For some people and their pups, however, immediately offering a chew thing could be seen by the pup as a reward for having gone to chew on the thing they shouldn't have. Hence, one of the methods I normally recommend is the one where the pup is "startled" (so it stops what it was doing), distracted by a recall or such like, and then offer a chew thing and praise when it chews it.

Hhhhmmm, my old neighbours would've jumped over and destroyed the camera. My neighbours didn't have anything to vent about my dog. It was a personal attack, involving property damage. Was concerned it'd lead to hurting my dog. Now .... why didn't I think of that?

I agree. Can be difficult to elimate the neighbours, sometimes, though. (Unless, of course, you use the "distance provoking spell" I used to make mine move away!

From what I can gather, ADT actually rang Kitty and discussed her question with her in person. I'd call that service!

Over the years, countless breeds, HR.

Yes, possible, PAX .... but need to clarify as to the context that advice was given, and what 'body language' was suggested to use. I could assume it meant something like "be tough and scarey" ... but that's all it would be - an ASSUMPTION, as this has not been described in the OP's post. I think the method suggested also might assume that you're not far away from the pup when it's caught in the act of doing something it shouldn't. I'm just pointing out here the anomalies that can arise out of misunderstanding and misinterpretation, and from people "filling in the gaps" by way of assumption.

This would depend on (a) The intensity of the "aggression" shown to the pup; and (b) The frequency of the "aggression" shown to the pup (by comparison to good stuff). If 'prevention' method is activated, and it's only the occasional 'accident' that occurs, if the intensity of the "aggression" (for want of better words) is appropriate and if the pup receives praise and good things for chewing on appropriate chew items, I see it as aiding towards sending a message, in black and white, to the pup about where its advantage lies. As I mentioned, using ONLY one method is not the answer (IMO) ... it's about using the best method FOR THE MOMENT (not yelling, just emphasising). Tollersend: I don't believe there was any real 'physical' punishment (in the sense that many people read it) dished out here, other than to hold the skin on the pup's neck. I think the punishment would be more in the look of the handler's face and the manner in which "No" is expressed. Also, note that Kitty's puppy ran away BEFORE she had the opportunity to enact this method of discouragement. I doubt, therefore, that it could be fear from that (if that's what you were implying). I'm not trying to convince you towards or away from any club.

In defence, I'd like to make the following comments: Firstly, it depends on how you read Kitty's post as to how much "aggression" each reader believes is being recommended to thrust towards the puppy. Secondly, Tollers, do you not think that a bitch wouldn't use an element of "aggression" (per sei) when a pup is not behaving as it should? Thirdly, all pups are different and some are more determined than others. Sometimes, the "too soft" approach doesn't cut it, and the pup simply needs something sterner for a clearer message. What has been commented on is one way of dealing with the situation ... that is, letting the pup know that chewing on the shoe is not on. I'm clarifying "grabbing around the neck" with Kitty at the moment, though. The thing is, when we have a pup, we should 'puppy proof' our home and remove objects not for their enjoyment out of their reach (ie deny access). If we are remiss here (it is difficult to cover all contingencies), there are a number of things we can do, depending on the problem, its frequency, and at what point we catch the pup. For example, another method would be, if the pup is just about to chew something it shouldn't, is to startle the pup and when it looks up, call it over. You can then go get it a chew item it's allowed to chew on. Randomisation of methods is often best, but the ultimate (for young pups) is prevention.

Get out'a here! No way .... with your breed of dog! Who'da guessed! Seriously, though, bring the food AND, if your dog's into toys at all, it's most fav. Your dog's fav motivator can change from time to time. And sometimes you might want to reward with the secondary motivator rather than the primary. So take both and keep them as your training reward only. But more than anything .... have fun!

I don't think they're against check chains. They are open to using the equipment that best suits the dog/person combo ... just as ADT are. Yes I have seen their website - good job! Have fun!

Oh, Hey! Goldielover. Good for you! Will see you down there (although due to commitments, my attendance at Berwick will be a bit irratic!). Have fun in your classes. :D ETA: Oh .... and make sure to take along your dog's favourite motivator to each class (eg. fav toy, food ... whatever).

:D If I wasn't a member of ADT, I'd be a member of Four Paws K9 Training. Like ADT, the owners/trainers there are very conscientious and knowledgable, care immensley about your dog's training, behaviour and progress and have a background in dog psychology. If you can't get to ADT, I don't think you'll be disappointed in Four Paws.

This is where I find FR training an advantage. Even if it's merely trained to not take food when it's owners' are around (ie in proximity). IMO, To command 'leave' assumes you are quite close to your dog and can see what it is sniffing at. ..... not always possible.

Hi K9. Curious about this remark. To make sure I'm not misinterpreting, I presume you are saying that a (successfully) food refusal trained dog is likely to be low on drive and full of nerves? Not picking ... genuinely interested. My own dog aside (who came with low drive/nervey problems when I adopted her as a 7 year old) and for which FR training came very easily and did not appear to affect or effect (either way) her temperament in this regard (FR training was necessary IMO due to issues with neighbours .... who've since moved. FR training regime has since softened, to an extent.) Generally and personally speaking, I'm not fond of what I believe you call "true Food Refusal" ... the type of training where, password or no password, the dog will not eat from anyone but its owner (eg), either. But why I'm curious about your statement is that the people that I know of who have (for their own reasons) felt it advantageous to their dog's well being to train Food Refusal to such heights, have had the type of dogs that I would describe as "hard" or "tough". Veeeerrrry strong on drive and not the slightest bit nervous (the opposite, in fact). And yet the owners' FR training regime was extremely strict and rigid. Or are you perhaps referring to the affects of FR training on an average 'pet dog' type animal, who starts out with a softer temperament in the first place? Or have I completely misunderstood you? :D

IMO, that's not "Food Refusal". I think I've posted (here or elsewhere) the difference between "Food Refusal" and "Leave". Food Refusal: the dog does not eat without hearing the "eat" command. Leave: the dog will eat unless it hears the "leave" command.

Chances are, I won't get to see you, Kitty .... I have a veeerrrrry rare day off this Saturday, and generally train at Springvale and Boronia Centres on Sundays. But I look forward to hearing here how you are going and progressing!

Yeah ... I figured that when I wrote my post. Even on a full wage, it's expensive. S'pose cycling down ain't an option? Seriously, Inspector .... I'm truely sorry ADT can't oblige in this case. Long shot .. maybe call them to see if they know of any classes conducted by people they might know of and can recommend? 9761 2772. As I said, a looooong shot, but you never know ???????

Welcome aboard, Kittyhawklee .... will look forward to meeting you and your dawgies !!! Errrrrrmmm, sorry InspectorRex .... not out at Morwell .... YET! ADT is fast growing, but I'm afraid it might be a little ways into the future before it's out there. Closest to Morwell would be Berwick, at the moment, I suspect.

I admit to not having read every post in this thread , but you say Bondi loves doing her tricks (because of the pazzazz involved, as you suggest) but not obedience. Have you given thought as to whether you treat the ordinary 'sit' or 'drop' etc. with the same 'pazzazz' you would when getting her to do a trick? The same happy look of anticipation and expectation on your face? What about getting her excited, all revved up with her favourite toy. Frustrate her with it ... push for prey drive. When she's a bit more wound up than usual, but focused on getting the toy, give the sit command (with 'pazzazz'). As soon as she's thrown herself into sit, give her release command and give her a 'win' on the toy. Turn "sit" into like as if she's doing a trick, if you get my drift. And like Denis and Amhailte .... I tend to throw in my obedience training during our walks. I might get my girl to leap onto a fallen log (she loves to climb onto things) and then command "sit". She feels very clever (well, that's what the look on her face seems to say) and very happy to sit. I release her and call her off the log and give her a treat. She sees this as 'fun' .... don't think she realises it's "usual obedience training" stuff.

I agree - it varies, as I said, but it is around that period of time, give or take some. The age of the pup, the breed of the pup and the pup as an individual are all factors that contribute to variation in time span. I think, however, the largest contributor towards toilet training taking longer rather than less time, is our own inconsistencies. Hey - I know we're not perfect and we have so many other things to attend to. So long as we acknowledge our own imperfections and accept that these will elongate the process and make toilet training all the more difficult. (And, of course, so long as we don't take that out on the pup.) But if you keep working at it, Mana, you'll get there. One other factor to store in the back of your mind is the possibility of medical/health issues (eg bladder infections). Unlikely, though it is ..... I wouldn't suggest you rush out to the Vet at this point ..... just keep it in your mind if your best most vigilent training is not improving matters.

As a general rule of thumb, toilet training takes approximately 2 weeks (give or take - naturally every pup is an individual and it can vary). This is on the basis, however, that you are consistently vigilent and doing all the things necessary. If you admit to yourself that you haven't been consistently vigilent and haven't quite done all things necessary, then expect it to take longer than it otherwise might. A pup isn't deemed housetrained until there have been no accidents over a span of four weeks (again, I'm generalising - if you got to the 28th day, it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your eye out on your pup's moves when inside, it just means that you can probably begin, bit by bit, to relax and start to trust your pup in this regard more and more each day).

I've got to admit that my dog gets on the sofa - but on the condition that when I ask him to get off he does so politely and immediately! Many of these NILIF rules can be relaxed when your dog has accepted his place in the pack structure, and does not display dominance-type behaviours towards you any longer. But IMO it's best to start off using all of the rules, and then decide which ones to relax later on. As usual, some pretty 'spot on' advice from Amhailte. Many dogs get by with being allowed on couches/sofas without problems, but I agree with Amhailte, it is far better to allow this on OUR terms, rather than on theirs (ie teach command to come up, and a command to get down). However, where there are issues already in evidence, it is, IMO, fairer and easier for the dog (and generally better all round) to "wipe the slate clean", so to speak, by drawing a VERY CLEAR and DEFINATE line by teaching your dog that getting up on the couch IS SIMPLY NOT on the agenda. By doing this, you are not being mean (even if you might feel you are) .... you are being clear by sending precise signals to your dog who does not otherwise understand OUR ways. You are being kinder to your pet by being firm, believe me. Maybe later, much later, when there have been no aggressive or dominance issues for quite a longish period of time (at least several months, if not longer, I'd suggest), you can relax this rule by teaching those "up" and "down" commands. Provided your dog's behaviour does not take a backward slide (even the slightest) as a result, this shouldn't be a problem.

Hi Lyssa. Good to hear from you. First ... where are you based? At least, what state? Assuming the problems are "leadership" issues (which seems to be the case), then obedience training will assist. However, there are other matters which need to be investigated and, if found out of 'whack', rectified. These issues relate to what's happening at home. If your dog does not perceive you as leader at home, then the intermittent insistance your dog obey you in obedience training may be difficult, if not result in your dog re-directing aggression on you. If this were to occur, it's your dog's way of saying "I am the leader and you have no right to govern me." It bothers me that these "private lessons" are given by people who have reported that they can't deal with aggression .... to me it indicates a lack of important knowledge which is required to assist you deal with the issues you are presently having. If you let us know where you are based, we should hopefully be able to recommend a trainer/behaviourist for either private lessons, or a training club comprising of trainers/behaviourists, who can give you information to assist you re-balance leadership at home, as well as train you on how to train your dog. With leadership at home in place, use of learnt training skills will assist you in 'reminding' your dog, on a regular basis, where his place is within the family unit. You are at least seeking help, and that's a great first step. The second great step is that you seem to have admitted and acknowledged that your 'spoiling' of your dog has resulted in the aggression. Assuming your desire to rectify the problem is genuine, I believe you will progress with your dog in leaps and bounds, provided, of course, you follow the suggestions of the appropriately qualified trainer/behaviourist.

Sorry .... didn't realise you were in Sydney. Was thinking Victoria. My mistake

Chris - does sound like heirarchy issues which, provided you get onto this quickly, can often be sorted out fairly swiftly. You say you're in the Box Hill area? I'd recommend you enquire about joining "Australian Dog Training". Depending on the obedience level you chose, the cost would be comparative to your "one visit behaviourist", except the fee to Australian Dog Training would cover membership and training for the whole of the dog's life and would include a broad socialisation program. In addition to that, however, there are behaviourists on the grounds at training/class times on most weekends and you can ask for and receive advice and guidance from them at no additional charge. Alternatively, if you don't wish to join them (although I think you'd get alot out of it if you did), they can arrange a private lesson/s/behaviourist consult at a considerably lesser price than what you've been quoted. Australian Dog Training have centres running as follows: Berwick - Saturday mornings Springvale - Sunday mornings Scoresby - Sunday mornings Heidelberg - Sunday mornings Boronia - Sunday afternoons Ascotvale - Tuesday nights (except during Melbourne Show period) Doncaster - Thursday nights You need to book in to go to one of their "First Timer's" programs. It's obligation free and there's no pushy sales type speak .... The program serves to merely explain what they're about (ie the programs available), how they train, why they train the way they do and the services available to you. After that, you'll meet with an assessor on a "one-on-one" basis to discuss the issues you're having (this helps determine the programs most suited to you and your dog) and then they go through the fees (which are dependent upon what program/s you chose). The only thing you have to lose by attending one of these programs is a couple of hours of your time. You bring your dog with you, along with vaccination papers and, if you want to, payment facilities (c.card etc) IN CASE you want to join up and get started. If you want more info you can call them on 9761 2772. The office is manned Monday - Fridays and I'm pretty sure Saturdays too.