KismetKat

leo - once she's told to stay she's pretty good (tho not today in the sit/stay - very unusual for her. But it was very windy and it was bothering her). But in the recall she definitely seemed in the same spot I had left her. I didn't say 'wait' on my return around her - isn't that a 2nd command? (so lose points?) She came on "come" without using her name first. In my first trial the other week I used name then recall - but apparently did not allow enough time between the two - so this time (as I could see I had her attentiuon) just opted for "come". Like I said in my 2nd post - now I have been sorting things out in my mind (it had all blurred together) I think the dropping at the start of the exercise might have been my problem. Still 1) it would have been nice to have been told rather than me guessing and 2) I wonder about the priorities in Obedience

Thanks toller. Now I've sat back and thought about it some more there IS one thing that could have made it an issue. The task is to walk forward (off lead) halt (and the dog sits) and then leave for the recall. Dunno where my dogs head was today but instead of sitting she dropped. The judge got me to try again and she dropped again. Third try and she sat and then I left her for the recall. Perhaps that is what NQ'd me? But then again this would make me argue against the philosophy of what is a good recall in Obedience trials. Surely the important thing is the dog comes when its dang well called? I NQ'd at the trial a few weeks ago cos the dog was too enthusiastic (my fault, too much voice) and run past me before coming to a halt by me. Yet dogs who think about it and wonder up still get a score (albeit low). Surely the point of a recall is the dog comes? For obedience trailling to have some meaning in real life doggy situations I would like to see the philosophy of grading changed to reflect a good score for a dog who comes straight away (not matter how sloppily) from one that favours a preferred style. What do others think?

I've just started my dog (3 and a half) at agility. She LOVES it! I'm also hoping it will help build on our obedience work. After only a few weeks we've been over all the equipment bar the see-saw. I am gobsmacked at the way she climbs over the A-frame (she's smallish). The tricky thing is for me to learn how to hold my body and have the confidence to guide her over the equipment in the order required - at the moment she has the bad habit of running off to zoom thru the nearest tunnel all of her own accord - she particularly LOVES tunnels.

Had a 'fun day' at my dog club today - where we all 'pretend' to trial. I went in the CCD level (people might remember I had my first real trial a few weeks ago where I DID bomb but had a good experience with a learning curve and good advice from kindly judges). Anyway today our judge was being judged themselves (to get a judge certificate) so he was pretending it was a 'real' trial and marking us accordingly (at a previous fun day they would only mark you down so far). Fair enough I thought having been in one real trial already. I am sorry to say that our heeling was even more crap than it had been at the real trial a few weeks ago. She can heel well - but alas not today. Oh well. Life's like that. But now to my query re the recall. As far as I saw she did it well. Came on the single command and sat before me (perhaps a bit skew-wiff, perhaps not as close as she should, but she sure bounded up to me and sat). I did the return and maybe she moved a bit? Dunno. I was keeping my head up as told I should. anyway I check the scores an hour late and wtf? Got an "nq" on the recall? Why? Nothing was explained in the ring. And other dogs didn't come until the 3rd call and then only wandered up slowly. What on earth did I do wrong? What makes a recall an 'nq' in a trial?

if by 'bayside' you mean near Glen Eira council area - our local dog group website has a list of clubs/schools in the vicinity here http://users.bigpond.net.au/doge/pages/links.html there is also one in cheltenham which is missing from the list.

Ness - Ok I see what you mean. And in future trials I now think I would definitely follow your advice. That being said I am still happy I did stay for the stays though as, for my first trial, I really needed to have the experience of what happens. Also there was the advantage of being on home club ground and, although the dog on one side was a stranger (but quite an old dog), the dog on the other was one I knew well. She too is solid in her stays and both dogs work very well together in class - no reactivity, no playfullness, just quiet work. Thus I felt very confident we'd get thru the stays. Hmmm hows this for a future strategy? If it's a double enter in the arvo only - have a big sleep-in with my dog and then arrive nice and fresh while the other dogs are tired out from the morning. Aside from anything else it would mean I wouldn't have to get up at sparrow-fart!

Ness - the thing is I had NO idea that a back to back double could be problem - it was my FIRST trial. After this experience my rec is NOT to do it As for doing the stays after not getting a good score - can you explain further? My dog didn't know we 'failed' heeling - so what diff to do the stays in the AM trial? Stays could have been mucked up by others even if we had passed the earlier stuff. In the AM trial she was working well, the errors were basically mine

So many things to respond to... laffi - it was the trial secretary who recomended I do both - I had sent in my entry (not realising it was a double) and she rang me. She talked me into entering both (of course the 'lure' was to get two thirds to a CCD title in one day) with the idea that for the sake of $8 I could always scratch for the afternoon. Reason I didn't scratch her is that the errors in the morning were basically mine - so I went for 2nd bite of the cherry. One thing I did note - of the dogs I watched almost all of them performed worse in the PM trial. Ness - the one thing I was confident about was the stays - so didn't feel this was pushing it in the morning trial (afterall, my dog didn't know she had NQ'd! ). The reason I didn't stay for them in the arvo was there was no over-riding reason why we should (no qualifying pass so far) and she was obvbiously tired (flaked out on her side after the heeling etc. round). What was good is that I corrected my earlier handler mistakes. Her heeling (for want of a better word for a dog with its nose down going all over the place) may have been appalling but at least she was dropping/sitting/standing as required - she also did a great recall. If we had stayed for the stays and her performance for those was her usual,our afternoon session would have seen an NQ score of 73 - much improved from the morning's 59! Funny thing is - 3 mins before we entered the ring I did a little practice and she heeled like a trooper! But for some reason once we entered the ring she lost all focus and went into 'beagle mode' with her nose down. So my feelings are:- 1) On the one hand I am happy to have at least tried the PM trial as I could correct my AM mistakes 2) On the other hand I wish I hadn't as it made for a too long and exciting day for my dog (even tho the day didn't seem that exciting and I gave her chillout time at home) 3) I am happy that I scratched her when I did and don't feel it should have been earlier 4) I would not recomend a double trial to newbies at CCD

Well after my experience on Sunday (and yes it was at Moorabbin) I would say don't worry about the fear. Easier said than done I know. I wasn't scared beforehand (probably because I was not expecting a qualifying score anyway - but perhaps that is NOT the attitude to have :D ) but once there the butterflies in the tummy... and they only got worse once I entered my first ring. And of course, your dog can smell all this. So take heart Kowai - the judges aren't monsters afterall (as atested in this thread) - so enter with the idea of it being fun, a learning experience for you both, and just BE CONFIDENT! That would be my advice after my first ever trial. And dogs are dogs - so keep your sense of humour, and remember the judge has one too. I would also rec you take my 2nd judges advice and if it IS a double day to only enter once. Some other dog owners on the day were saying to me that the extra experience was good for my dog, but in retospect I really think I just should have entered for the morning and left it at that. Just being around such a busy atmosphere is emotionally tiring on your dog, so limit their exposure for that first time round and don't worry about ideas of being two thirds to the way to a title in a single day. That being said, if you are on a NOT on a qualifying score in a single trial, I think STILL go the distance and stay for the stays (which some NQ handlers didn't on Sunday morning) - it's all part of the experience and learning. Yes I scratched my dog in the afternoon session from the stays - but she'd already performed these well in the AM. Why put her thru it again for a (potential) score of 73? Her stays are fine - and she was happy to come home to her sunday bone. Good luck Kowai

Capash - No I wasn't despondent, I always figured for my first trial a qualifying pass would be a bonus (alas one I didn't get *sigh* ) And Yes it was Moorabbin which is my local club - so the experience was helped by having people around that I knew. Toller - have not entered anywhere else - was waiting to get this first one under my belt. That being said I am NOT an 'early riser' and would not be looking at going too far afield. Re training I have actually moved across to Agility (which being an excitable sort, my dog really loves) but would be nice to have a CCD title (at some stage) under my belt. Am glad to hear that CCD judges are generally so encouraging - part of what scared me off obedience was the preception of it being extremely strict and unfriendly - honestly I don't mind failing when I know I haven't done what is needed and the judges are helpful and friendly in pointing me in the right direction.

Just a quick report on our first ever trial and a query at the end. It was a double trial and I was talked into doing both AM and PM. My results in the AM had me with an NQ with the heel work (amongst other things she didn't do the first drop, and then on the 2nd did so with glacial slowness). Stand for examination (which I thought was our weakpoint as she has a tendancy to want to jump up and kiss noses ) went well with a score of 8, however I fluffed the recall (my fault) by putting too much exuburance into the 'come' command and she raced to me so fast she ran past me! Oooops! Rock solid on the stays tho. OK the PM trial - seemed to have good focus till I entered the ring and then is was 'sniff heavan' for her. Although this time she did her drops/stands/etc well, the heeling was a dogs breakfast - so strike 2 for heeling! Did fine on the the examination (again) and the recall (this time) was good. In chatting with the judge and him then knowing it was her very first trial, he suggested that just the morning may have been enough for her first time as it is very tiring - so without having a qualifying score to worry about (and she just flopped once I got out of the ring and sat down) I ended up asking to scratch her from the rest of the trial. The day was a HUGE learning curve - even after being informed in the AM session that I was not to touch the dog once in the ring I still did it in the PM (with an 'ooops, sorry, I'm not meant to do that am I?"). All in all there is no disappointment from not getting a qualifying score and we both had an interesting (but tiring) day. I brought her home early and she much enjoyed her Sunday bone. Now here is my query - ok we stuffed up but the judges were SO nice explaining stuff and being understanding that we were total newbies (and also VERY nervous, most particlarly in the AM session). Yes they took the marks off (as they should!), but it really helped that they explained and were understanding and kind (and also smiled and had a sense of humour). Yet the whole 'obedience trialling' thing seems to have this HUGE "serious" side (iykwim) where the preception is that judges won't smile about snafus or give you handy feedback. So did I just get lucky with these two judges? Or is this 'perception' wrong?

and yes like Erny said, a chicken dance or time warp (with the handlers dancing together, in time!) Certainly would make trialling more of a spectator event! :D But thanks for replies guys - I will try and be a good vegemite and figure out where my hands are best kept

MrsD - they are suggesting I stand with my hands behind my back for stays, and in front for recalls. I'd like to see a dog 'trained' where the hokie pokie is a 'reinforcement' of a stay

I'm curently in the triallers class with my doggy school (thanks Dogsdot who talked me into in ). And I have a question about the stays. I got ticked off as 'not doing my dog a favour' by signalling to her that she was in a 'stay' by standing with my hands behind me. The gist of what I was told was that hands in front would be Ok for a recall as then the dog would know to expect a recall, but hands behind showed I meant business about staying put. Jeesh! Who is in the 'stay' - me or the dog???? I proof my dogs stays in practice by wandering around, picking up imaginery things, taking phantom phone calls on my mobile and (if the park is ENTIRELY empty) doing the hokie pokie! What is the point the teaching your dog the 'stay' command if to get it complied with one must also stand still as if they have a broom stick rammed up their nether regions? I note there is no rule in the VCA handbook that says a handler can't do the hokie pokie whilst in the groups stays. But I bet if I did that in a trial my name would be mud across the entire country. I'm losing interest in trialling as it seems to me it has little to do with 'real' control over your dog. Am I wrong to be getting this opinion?

I have been working with a trainer - but perhaps the "discipline' is not the right sort for my dog? I've seen dogs cower at the slightest harsh word, yet, as WD says, other dogs need different discipline. There can be so many different ways to discipline - It would be interesting to hear what different methods DOLers use for their different dogs.

Thanks nekbeht. I didn't mean for this thread to get confused with Rosie's occasional foray into solving the DD issue I was just worried about the blue tongue. But as you say, terriers are terriers and the lizard has survived for some months (so far) in a garden with 2 JR crosses already in residence - perhaps rather than 'dumb' lizard it is smarter than we give credit for? Or those JRs are slow... Look for a "lizard report" when I am back from hols.

no doubt myscka you will be shortly be taken into custody under the new terrorism laws and, although eventually released, you will not be able to tell us anything about your incarceration.

ack no - if going by last year the little buggers get on like a house on fire! *sigh* yes... I am really leaning towards your "ooh look at that kooka" idea! as for my dog's 'on dog' issues - i reckon she's been reading these forums - it's those oodles she hates (but only the small ones and only some of them!). It's all so selective and non definable in human terms. If she doesn't like small dogs why so friendly with a couple of chihuauas today? If it is fluffy she doens't like, why so friendly with samoyeds, cockers, poodles and gawd knows what else that hasnt been clipped lately. If it is young she doesn't like, why so sweet with a visiting 9 week old pup? I am sure the little bugger has been reading the DD threads on this forum.

oooh I couldn't bear to leave her in a kennel (where's that crying smiley?) - tis the whole reason we holiday with family so the furkid can come too! She won't be unsupervised for 'hours' - she and her dog cousins have the run of the house and yard, and if we go to the beach (I generally last about an hour) my SIL is still generally home pottering in the shed. I have already been working a lot on her chasing instinct and maybe a still blue tongue she wouldn't even notice! But then again, one of her dog cousins certainly has - so he could teach her If it does prove to be a problem I guess I could always take her to the beach with me (it's that sort of beach and just across the road too).

:D belijae - I have read 'the other end of the leash' - think it is a great book

Shek - thanks for info about placement of check chains - I will try and keep it higher but given my mutts odd body shape, this may be difficult. Kavik - basically if we are out she has the run of the house and backyard with her doggy cousins. That being said, she tends to maintain a vigil on the front deck awaiting my return. Perhaps I should speak to my SIL about a fence for the bluetongue?

I appreciate the 'not set the dog up for failure' idea - I do this at home and in my training sessions. But our family holiday is staying in a relo's house. I may be being a worrywort here, but can just imagine if her doggy cousins are gunning for this poor bluetongue, then my dog will happily take the lead. She will be in the backyard with them while we are out at the beach with the kids. Is this an impossible situation?

We are getting results - slowly but surely. The problem with a behaviourist is getting the behaviourist to actually witness the behaviour! We've been under the auspices of a trainee trainer for weeks and weeks with ADT, and only once has she managed to see my dog react in the way I have been describing. And how 'aggressive' this truly is is hard to gauge - she does similar behaviour in play with dogs she knows. So short of letting her actually go ahead and see if she attacks... well it is hard to say what is going on. Is she just excited? So the training/correction is more about encouraging more quiet behaviour, and corrected what may be either a) over exuberance or b) aggression. It''s all hard to tell - but I am erring on the side of caution. She's not managed to actually attack anything! Now, about that bluetongue...

SAS - yes I have been ignorning my dog when I come home. She calms eventually and I call her and make her sit then say 'hello'. We have been working on this. We are also working on her reactiviness to some dogs - but it is not cut and dried what dogs she is reactive to! She's fine with the vast majority of dogs. If i could define the sort of dogs she was reactive to I would say 'some small fluffies and puppies' - yet many small fluffies she is fine with, and as for puppies, well I had a 9 week old lab pup visit the other week and they got on like a house on fire. However with rewards for nice bahaviour, and corrections for any snappiness, it all does seem to be improving. We plug away at this. As for the bluetongue - tis not my backyard. And the boys in residence are already having a go. Add the cousin (bigger, stronger and maybe faster) ... My dog has a 'leave it' but I unless I am there... What about when we go to the beach? Terriers can be so cat like into getting up to naughtiness just cos you are not there to see!

SAS - we've been doing the 'turn your back' thing for months about a particular bad behaviour (too much excitment with visitors). Perhaps we just have too few visitors for the discipline to work? However I do admit she is calming down quicker but I have had to add, lately, putting her on the lead and giving corrections. I have hooked up with ADT who suggest corrections on the chain - all very well when she is on lead - but what about when off? The upcoming scenario I am worried about is we are holidaying at my SIL's with her 2 JR crosses. Their bush garden now has some ponds and a bluetongue has taken residence. MY SIL's dogs are keen to have a go at it, despite what sounds like heavy handed discipline. The dogs are 2 boys and my girl thinks herself something of an alpha female - and I am sure she will want to 'go' this poor bluetongue too! What can I do to well and truly show her that this is "NOT ON!" She's a bitza with more than a dash of terrier on her plus some BC.