Breeding Obed/agilty Titled Dogs Together

[Arya]

I do not believe that the average breeder is able to accurately breed for drive. Without being a scientist in genetics, its all hit and miss.

If you cast your eye over all of the obedience champions in the country you will find that they are all from different lines and of different breeds.

Its my understanding that Police dogs and the like are sourced from a variety of places and chosen on their individual traits..........not necessarily lines they come from.

Okay, through the job I used to have I know a bit about this. Plus a person in the family who studied genetics at uni. I disagree totally that you cannot breed for drive and it certainly isn't all hit and miss, though failures do occur depending on dominant genes. You can breed for lots of traits - comes down to a single gene pair often. Rogue ones creep in of course... we see this all the time. You breed for one thing and good old Darwinian theory throws another curve ball at us in an effort to improve the species. For anyone who is truly interested in this, I recommend reading the seminal study on dogs by Scott and Fuller - Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog. Out of print now but available on EBay. A fifteen year study, meticulously done, that gives us the most info on critical periods of development in dogs but also, lots of other stuff like genetic traits. A heavy read, boring at times, but well worth it.

I believe if you take two excellent Obedience/Agility/Sch. dogs - whatever you are looking for, and breed them, your chances of producing through the right genetic combination, similar dogs, are very very high indeed. However, there will be other traits appear in the litter, some good, some bad, due to natural selection.

Intelligence is debateable. I believe in it in dogs - examples of higher order thinking. That's intelligence. Sometimes is a disadvantage in the trial ring lol.

Dogdude, I do however agree with you about drive/motivation over intelligence. This is often mistaken for intelligence.

Nerve - so critical in working dogs in any field.

These can all be bred for.

Why do you think it can't be accurately bred for?

PS - the police do like to source from same places, as do military. I know of someone who recently had his Mal tested by Air Force so his traits could be used in their breeding program. Why would they bother to go around and do this if you couldn't accurately breed for desirable traits in working dogs?

JMHO

Edited November 21, 2007 by Arya

[wylie]

Some interesting comments !

Having just bred a litter of Border Collies where structure, temperament and performance were all considered it has been interesting hearing about there progress in there new homes now they are 5 1/2 months old.

There dam is handicapped by me! I have no clue when it comes to herding and thru anothers efforts she has some herding titles. Sire is obedience and herding titled.

Some of the pups have already turned on to sheep and are showing there mothers style with her and the sires biddability. All have foundation work in obedience. One is already doing hospital visits.

But the thing that all owners has commented on is there ability to relax and be calm.

They are not busy busy puppies as many like to call high drive. Yet when needed to concentrate at whatever they all are quick to learn and continue doing what is asked of them.

I look forward to seeing and hearing of there adventures as they grow up but am pleased with what is already being shown.

Maybe it was a mating that just clicked and maybe the forethought in to this cross was what has enabled it to work.

[dogdude]

Hi Arya

Not a genetic expert, but these remarks are based on what I see as a whole.

Like conformation traits, you only very rarely get whats close to the ideal, no matter how great the dogs before them were. You can sometimes breed a good dog with an ordinary dog and get outstanding conformation traits.

Reading K9s posts, he can test thousands of dogs and only find a few suitable for protection training or Police work, so...........why is this the case?

If there traits were so easily bred for, K9s assessment would hardly be needed.

It strikes me strange that all of these hundreds of years of breeding purebred dogs to the same standard, still cant regulary breed one to the ideal standard. This is a clear indication that there is a lot of hit and miss.

I think that as a whole, it would be much easier and definately more reliable to search for the desired trate in the dog rather than try to breed one.

[alanglen]

Definately agree that breeding for brains and training attitude, and drive is possible! Even agree that breeding for specific talent in tasks is possible.

Definately agree with the horse racing analogy, breednig is all about combining traits and yes whilst any trainer can get a dog to improve, starting with well bred dogs who show an affinity for the chosen field definately makes life easier.

I have bloodlines which are not show based but training based and it's more about their health and intelligence! The girls also have the natural ability to detect seizures which is being passed down from generation to generation.

Could not agree more about breeding for training and there are several very talented breeders out there who almost solely breed for their chosen dog sport field with amazing success.

[poodlefan]

Hi Arya

Reading K9s posts, he can test thousands of dogs and only find a few suitable for protection training or Police work, so...........why is this the case?

If there traits were so easily bred for, K9s assessment would hardly be needed.

The issue here Dogdude is that dogs are not generally bred for the traits K9 searches for. However, if he's looking for a GSD for protection work, he'd have a higher rate of success looking to dogs bred from working lines and who have relatives in protection work than from exhibition lines. That's not necessarily a bad thing.. a full on GSD or Malinois is not going to fit well in your average family home.

I think that as a whole, it would be much easier and definately more reliable to search for the desired trate in the dog rather than try to breed one.

The difficulty is that the traits you want in the adult aren't always easily selected for in a pup. Breeding for work is about improving the chances of getting the right pup.

All over the world, Guide Dog organisations, police and the military have or are establishing their own breeding programs. They will breed dogs selectively to increase the potential of the pups for future work. The reason for the establishment of these programs is that such organisations can no longer rely solely on other breeders for the dogs they need.

Selective breeding to increase the prevalence of certain physical or mental characteristics is precisely the rationale for why today's purebred dog breeds exist. It's also the reason why so many breeds display traits they may never have been taught to use eg. herding, guarding, retrieving, or hunting prey.

Edited November 22, 2007 by poodlefan

[Jeff Jones]

Excellent post Poodlefan.

[jesomil]

I definately think you can breed for drive and other working traits. It is proven consistantly in working lines of any breed.

I have been reading a Schutzhund book and it has a section on puppy selection. In the book, it says that you will never get a pup that is better than its parents, so it is best to go with parents that have the traits you are after.

High drives become more important in sports that dogs need to have certain genetic traits and high drive or they wont be able to compete at high levels, such as schutzhund, retrieving etc.

Like conformation traits, you only very rarely get whats close to the ideal, no matter how great the dogs before them were. You can sometimes breed a good dog with an ordinary dog and get outstanding conformation traits.

Not sure if you mean this with working traits, but if dogs are working bred and some are heavily line bred as well, then you can pretty much guarantee that most of the pups in the litter will be good. You will not get outstanding workers out of ordinary dogs.

Reading K9s posts, he can test thousands of dogs and only find a few suitable for protection training or Police work, so...........why is this the case?

If there traits were so easily bred for, K9s assessment would hardly be needed.

As poodlefan said, its because most of the dogs he would be testing have been bred for other purposes first like showing. If he was testing only dogs purely bred for working it would be a completely different story.

I think that as a whole, it would be much easier and definately more reliable to search for the desired trate in the dog rather than try to breed one.

That will work as long as you are after dogs with an average sort of drives. It is a bit hit and miss.

If you are after a highly driven pup, your chances are better going from proven lines where both parents have the traits you are after rather than getting a pup from average parents and hoping it will be more driven than them.

[Vickie]

The difficulty is that the traits you want in the adult aren't always easily selected for in a pup. Breeding for work is about improving the chances of getting the right pup.

All over the world, Guide Dog organisations, police and the military have or are establishing their own breeding programs. They will breed dogs selectively to increase the potential of the pups for future work. The reason for the establishment of these programs is that such organisations can no longer rely solely on other breeders for the dogs they need.

Selective breeding to increase the prevalence of certain physical or mental characteristics is precisely the rationale for why today's purebred dog breeds exist. It's also the reason why so many breeds display traits they may never have been taught to use eg. herding, guarding, retrieving, or hunting prey

Good post PF. But to provide a balanced view on your statement above...it can also be this selective breeding that is responsible for them losing breed traits.

I agree with everyone that breeding good to good (in anything) should increase your chances of good, but I still have to question whether breeding for Obed/Agility can be reasonably compared to breeding for work.

I might be a little defensive about this one. I have what I think is an above average agility dog (and another one well on the way to looking above average ( both hampered by an average handler)), who come from a large family of above average agility dogs...but...contrary to some people's assumptions, they weren't bred for agility. So while they have a breeder who is extremely talented in breeding dogs who are great at agility, the traits that were selected for breeding were not actually agility traits and yet the dogs being produced are consistently above average.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Vickie

[bridgie_cat]

but I still have to question whether breeding for Obed/Agility can be reasonably compared to breeding for work.

from the view of keeping true to the breed and its original work etc - no, you could not say this is true for all breeds... (although I feel it does test many of the traits that are valued in a working dog for my breed and I would think parts of it would apply to many working breeds) and certainly not 100% true for any breed - since I dont think any dog has been developed with agility as the goal... but if only real farmers, or people willing to work their dogs as real farm dogs, bred with a focus on improving/maintaining working aspects of the breed - you would have a significantly smaller % of the breed population that was kept with some similarity in temperament to a true working dog... that, I think, would be a terrible loss for the breed as a whole. IMO working in agility/obedience is a far better indicator than doing nothing with a dog and then trying to select for working traits!

I absolutely believe in the the value of genetics in temperament and also feel that agility/obed have their place in the selection of good working temperaments.

ETA - Vickie - IMO dogs from working lines (and I mean REAL work) share many traits that make good agility dogs and vice versa - which is why I think selecting for skill in any challenging training arena will inevitably maintain at least SOME of the original traits selected for in real working dogs... so if your dogs are bred for real work and this carries over into agility skill - I think that is a good advertisement for agility as a possible selection criteria that will maintain some of the original working traits...

It all comes down to what the breeder sees as correct and how they prioritise in their breeding program - doesnt matter how the select for it (although some methods will be more accurate than others) - working them on a real farm or in a dog sport wont change the genes - it only makes it easier to see what you are working with...

Edited November 22, 2007 by bridgie_cat

[Vickie]

... but if only real farmers, or people willing to work their dogs as real farm dogs, bred with a focus on improving/maintaining working aspects of the breed - you would have a significantly smaller % of the breed population that was kept with some similarity in temperament to a true working dog... that, I think, would be a terrible loss for the breed as a whole.

Never mind

Edited November 23, 2007 by Vickie

[Tonymc]

It is no mystery why people like K9 and others over the years find it harder and harder to attain suitable Dogs for their lines of work.

Modern day breeding has damaged many Dogs, through dogs being bred soley on appearance and never tested.Drive needs to be bred for but cannot be measured just by a Dog"s appearance!!!!The Dog has to be tested to reveal his or her drive level.

Too many breed low drive to low drive and very soon we have high drive dogs becoming scarce. Tony

[sidoney]

I think you have to keep in mind where the dog is going to live. For work, or for pet. Pet homes have different requirements in terms of drive. Especially since many people are novices. In a way, being successful pets is testing for pet type dogs.

If people bred high drive GSDs only, there would be very few of them as they would be restricted to work homes.

As to the morals of one course or another - that could be debated forever.

[Yarrowfell]

Thanks for all the interesting replies. I have just mated my bitch so will be interested to see the outcome.

I had to choose between:

1) A boy that last time with same bitch produced structurally lovely babies (multi class in shows - conformation) and another baby that I think is incredibly bright (in CCD and Flyball atm).

2) A conformation CH but he produced what I think was an amazingly bright puppy (but too small for the show ring) last time to the litter sister of my bitch.

I chose option number two so now I wait to see what (if we get any) the babies are like.

[Arya]

It is no mystery why people like K9 and others over the years find it harder and harder to attain suitable Dogs for their lines of work.

Modern day breeding has damaged many Dogs, through dogs being bred soley on appearance and never tested.Drive needs to be bred for but cannot be measured just by a Dog"s appearance!!!!The Dog has to be tested to reveal his or her drive level.

Too many breed low drive to low drive and very soon we have high drive dogs becoming scarce. Tony

SUPERBLY SAID TONYMC, COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The GSD is a perfect example of this and it makes me cry, truly. Why is drive, working ability and nerve with this breed associated with 'viciousness' by the general public? IMHO this needs to be seriously addressed by the relevant GSD bodies. I almost cried last year at a public demonstration by the GSDCV demo team at a country show where the commentator, a part of the team, stated over the microphone to the general public as the dogs were doing their tricks (just formation work, carrying baskets, jumping over each other stuff, no TRUE GSD WORK!) that breeders were now breeding - and I quote, cos I'll never forget his exact words - 'a softer dog that is more suitable for the pet home'. What GARBAGE! IMHO the very best working dogs should also be the very best house dogs with solid temperament. So what hope does this wonderful breed have in this country when this attitude is displayed... by a long standing and quite influential member of the club that is supposed to be the breed's guardian???

I am lucky. At least my girl has bloody good drive even if her nerve is not what it should be. But I've seen plenty of flat working GSDs who just don't have the breeding behind them - and even the show lines just should NOT be like that.

Can you tell how this upsets me? lol

[dishlicker]

I have bred 2 dogs just recently the bitch dual Qld State novice odbedience champion, Brisbnae Ekka novice 1st place (all scores over 196) winner of Qld Open dog of the year to a novice titled dog who won this year Qld State Tiles 194 points, National obedinece titles 195 points and Brisbane Ekka with a score of 198 and has one leg in open already.

Do you think I could train them to drive me to the trials?

p.s. I did train both

[dishlicker]

Thanks for all the interesting replies. I have just mated my bitch so will be interested to see the outcome.

I had to choose between:

1) A boy that last time with same bitch produced structurally lovely babies (multi class in shows - conformation) and another baby that I think is incredibly bright (in CCD and Flyball atm).

2) A conformation CH but he produced what I think was an amazingly bright puppy (but too small for the show ring) last time to the litter sister of my bitch.

I chose option number two so now I wait to see what (if we get any) the babies are like.

Both dogs I owned are also Aust Champions with both group and show awards to their credits

Edited November 27, 2007 by ziggy1