Fighting Dogs

[Lab_Rat]

After talking to my breeder/trainer who is hours away and cant physically help me, I am hoping that someone out there in DOL land has perhaps been in a similar situation with their dogs, or just has some advice.

Some background on the dogs in question.

We have a 5yo sterilized Kelpie bitch, Wandy and an 18mo unsterilized Rhodesian Ridgeback bitch, Zola. Mostly they get along fine, play together and are yarded together when we are at work. They have their own beds, but arent so close they will sleep together.

Wandy was attacked when a pup, in our car by a large crossbred dog. Since then, she doesnt particularly enjoy other dogs company, especially if they are bigger than her. She loves humans, is very trainable and would do anything for a human. Generally she is a very happy little dog, she loves a game and loves "rounding up" the sheep and horses on the outside of their paddock.

Zola is our 2nd ridgeback, quite an assertive and stubborn dog, but also a very happy, and playful girl. I am having to learn to be more assertive than she, something quite foreign to me as Ive never had a bossy, independent dog before. She show signs of being quite protective in the car, growling at strangers who come near, by the car. She is reprimanded for this vocally and is not as bad as she used to be, usually just a grumble now, which I will tolerate if it doesnt become more.

So here is our dilemma. Wandy gets into these strange "moods", where especially after their tea, she seems to be anxious, nervous and on edge. She will come into the loungeroom to sit down, but wants to sit on top, or as close to me as possible. If Zola comes anywhere near her she will growl. She also averts her eyes, as if she is scared of Zola. It appears Zola sees this as some sort of challenge so she will rush her, barking and growling. They usually have what I call a mexican standoff, where no biting takes place and after a short amount of time one of them retreats. Wandy is then very apprehensive of Zola for quite a time afterwards, understandably!!

Last night however was sightly different. I was laying on the loungeroom floor, with Wandy at my feet. When Zola, who had been asleep on her bed came in, Wandy started growling and Zola just went for her. I leapt up and yelled at Zola to get out, which fell on deaf ears. I then picked up one of their toys and whacked Zola a few times with it to try and get her off. She was standing over Wandy with her jaws over over her neck. Unfortunately neither of them had their collars on, so it was difficult to drag Zola off, although I did in the end and OH and I spent the next few minutes yelling at dogs to get to their beds. Not the most useful behaviour I know, but it was quite scary! Zola got a couple of whacks, and was sent to bed. No blood was spilt, but I know Wandy was psychologically bleeding .

Before going to bed I took them both out for a wee. Zola is always on lead outside at night, as we live on 5 acres with the odd roo coming through. So, Zola had her wee, then Wandy has to wee over Zolas, fine. On the way back to the house Zola decided to leap at Wandy, dont know whether it was a continuation of the previous incident, but I didnt want it to be. So I pushed Zola to the ground and started yelling at her what a witch she was, blah, blah, blah etc. I didnt let her up for about 30seconds, until I felt she had "heard" me. She then acted very submissive, went straight to her bed and stayed there all night. Usually they will try and sneak up onto our bed.

They are still a bit wary this morning, Wandy not really wanting to be near "Killer", which I can quite understand.

So, my questions are;

Can anyone shed any light on whats going on behaviourly/psychologically, mainly with Wandy?

What can I do to lessen 1). Wandys behaviour? 2). the attacks? 3). Zolas reactiveness?

What can "I" do to be more in charge of what the hell is going on with my dogs? I understand I need to be a better leader, and all that goes with it, but I am obviously missing something for me to not be able to see these incidents coming, how to stop them and for Zola to be so reactive.

I dont wish to be flamed for my above actions, I know I need more training, as do my dogs, thats why Im here. What Im after is some constructive help, any training contacts in the Bunbury WA area, and just to know that Im not as useless as I feel right at this moment. I find the whole aggressive dog thing very distressing, and spent most of last night not sleeping because I was so upset. I worry that Zola will turn into some killing machine if this is not nipped in the bud. My OH also feels there should be some instant cure, I try to tell him it doesnt work that way, but I dont think he understands.

So, anyone out there, Help Please

RG

[Miranda]

It sounds to me as if Zola is pushing to be top dog, you have two dogs of the same sex and this can sometimes mean trouble especially if they're both female. Desexing the younger bitch may help, but there are no guarantees. I can't recommend any trainers in that area, but if I were you I'd be separating them when you go out and making sure that there's no food, toys or any other high value items left lying around, fights can erupt out of nowhere and fights between bitches can be very bad and they can be very hard to separate. You have been lucky up to now, but I'd be very careful because if they really go for it there's a good chance that one or both may have serious injuries and it's not unknown for bitches to fight until one of them is incapable of fighting anymore.

[Lab_Rat]

Thanks Miranda. I leave no toys or food with them when are penned, and at this stage theres no real way of keeping them separate. As we have the younger bitch on breeders terms, she wont be spayed until she is bred or the breeders decide otherwise. I have not had an entire bitch before either.

I can understand her behaviour, but I just dont get Wandys?

Thanks again, RG

[Miranda]

In my experience dogs are always a bit hyped after their evening meal, any fights I've had have always happened in the evening and bitches in season always want to be mated after dinner , why this is I don't know. It sounds to me as if Wandy is staying close to you because she's worried about Zola and Zola doesn't like her getting the attention, Zola sounds like quite a dominant bitch and you'll probably find that she'll be even more cocky just before she comes into season.

Bitches that don't get on are a real hassle, once one gets it in for another you've got real problems.

BTW I'm not a dog behaviourist or trainer, all my advice is simply based on my own experiences.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Miranda

[BrunoBella]

Do you have a crate at all? As the problem occurs after tea, you could crate them turn about so they both have time with you but can't get to each other. Just a thought.

Hope you get it sorted out.

[Reddii]

I don't know how to solve your problem with the two dogs, other than to say, you are not useless and are doing the right thing trying to understand the problem and sort it out.

Although I don't have two bitches I do have two young dog who went through a bit of a 'stage' where we had 2 or 3 similar instances inside the house. One was over a cricket, one was over a scrap of paper and I have no idea what the other one was over but I had just come back after obedience - only one gets to come out each week.

Fortunately it has all settled down now and with the exception of the occasional 'strangeness' is all said and done. (fingers crossed)

Sorry I can't help and good luck, but please don't feel inadequate, you are doing everything you can to get this sorted and that's what counts.

[BrunoBella]

I agree with redii. Don't beat yourself up about this, most of us, including me, have lost it and screamed at our dogs in frustration

I have been following the progress of Meriment with 3 JRTs - two bitches that he had to separate. This is his thread which you might find intersting: Aggresive problems fixed.

I am sure one of the trainers will help with advice.

I love Bunbury - except for the wind...

Good luck

[Lab_Rat]

Thanks for your words of encouragement and advice. You have all helped, even if just by your kind words!

It took me quite a while to gather the guts to put up my thread and then to type it through the tears of frustration and upset-ness (yeh i know theres no such word, cant think of the correct one atm).

Thanks BP, I have read Merriments entire thread, what a joy for them to have three dogs that will now get along. Just glad my two arent that bad yet .

Excuse my ignorance, but what is an e-collar? And how does it work?

Man, if I could just get my inner leader to pop her head out, it would be fantastic. So much about dog training has clicked, but the assertive, calm, confident leader bit is still lost on me. I try, by using stern, firm commands, not letting them get away with too much stuff, but its obviously not enough. Grrrrrr, I feel so inept and frustrated, a bit like trying to learn trigonometry, or understand how the info is layed down on a CD, my brain just wont do it. (And no, I dont want to know about the CD!)

Many thanks for reading and helping!

RG

[ravensmyst00]

While it is cute and fun to have the dogs up with you on your sofa or on the bed you are only putting at a higher head level than you and they think they are top dog.

First suggestion would be - no more sofa sitting or sleeping in your bed. Until you get your "pack" reorganised with you at the top I wouldnt be sitting on the floor with them either. Sounds harsh but it would be a wise first step.

Second suggestion - Find K9 Force and have a chat with him.

Lastly dont beat yourself up. You have done the right thing asking for help.

[BrunoBella]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is an e-collar? And how does it work?

An ecollar is an electronic device with a remote which you can use to train dogs. I am using it at the moment to train my 2 gsps in the perfect recall (see thread down the page). My training course is through K9 Force and his website has lots of info.

Also Marks, has information on his website.

All this information is on this thread: E collar links

I agree with Ravensmyst001. A chat to Steve from K9 Force is a good way to go. You can email him from his website and he also posts on here.

Have fun

[chicko]

Have PM'd you

[greying-fast]

Again, I can only talk from my experience. We had an 8 year old desexed bitch and added a 6 month old pup, also a desexed bitch.

First dog was grieving the loss of our old dog and didn't assert herself against the pup until she'd got back to a normal state of mind, several months later. Older dog started to challenge pup, which we didn't stop, but younger girl was not ready to give up her position as dominant dog (which had been handed to her on a plate). We missed the serious signs, and one horrendous fight (and several thousand dollars of vet bills) later it all came to a head - young girl (who is totally alpha, including over every male we've had through as fosters) wasn't going to put up with the challenges any longer.

Good on you for observing and being concerned about the signs. Please separate where you can and get in a behaviourist as soon as possible.

Once the older bitch recovered (of course, she came off worse) we separated them as much as possible and muzzled HER when the two were together (that way she wasn't a threat to the younger one). They now deal with each other quite well, as long as the older one accepts the younger as the dominant.

Good luck.

[Meriment]

Hi RidgyGirl,

Sorry to hear you're having such a crap time at the moment with your girls - trust me, I know exactly how it feels!! You read my thread about my girls...

I didn't realise our problem was all linked to pack structure and my lack of leadership, but once it was spelt out to me it was pretty obvious

You talk about having 1 dog on your lap on the couch, who then avoids eye contact with the other dog on the ground, "mexican stand-offs", growling, etc. Yep I can relate to it all!!

In our house the rule is now NO dogs on the couch, laps, beds, etc. Anywhere higher, where humans (higher pack members) sit, sleep, etc, is out of bounds. It elevates their position in the pack to take up these positions and then the problems start.

We have crates which we use (always have had), but also use mats now which we can move around the house & garden, and have taught them to go and stay on their mats. They don't move until I tell them they can. They like having a place to go and "knowing where they stand" (so to speak!).

Someone mentioned to not be on the floor with them either - and I have to agree with this too. Been there, done that - and got into trouble with it (only recently). I put myself down on their level, which was a stupid thing to do knowing what issues I have with them!

I know it is hard at first to take a tougher stance but you have to do it. The dogs will be happier for it - they need you to do this.

[BrunoBella]

How's it going ridgygirl. You got those girls under control yet??

Doesn't really happen that fast but I'm curious to see whether any of these steps are working.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I am going to preface this reply with this statement... I havent seen your dogs & could be way off, & in fact I feel online diagnostics are not the way to go, but I will give you some hypotheticals..

Wandy was attacked when a pup, in our car by a large crossbred dog. Since then, she doesnt particularly enjoy other dogs company, especially if they are bigger than her. She loves humans, is very trainable and would do anything for a human. Generally she is a very happy little dog, she loves a game and loves "rounding up" the sheep and horses on the outside of their paddock.

Zola is our 2nd ridgeback, quite an assertive and stubborn dog, but also a very happy, and playful girl. I am having to learn to be more assertive than she, something quite foreign to me as Ive never had a bossy, independent dog before. She show signs of being quite protective in the car, growling at strangers who come near, by the car. She is reprimanded for this vocally and is not as bad as she used to be, usually just a grumble now, which I will tolerate if it doesnt become more.

So here is our dilemma. Wandy gets into these strange "moods", where especially after their tea, she seems to be anxious, nervous and on edge. She will come into the loungeroom to sit down, but wants to sit on top, or as close to me as possible. If Zola comes anywhere near her she will growl. She also averts her eyes, as if she is scared of Zola. It appears Zola sees this as some sort of challenge so she will rush her, barking and growling. They usually have what I call a mexican standoff, where no biting takes place and after a short amount of time one of them retreats. Wandy is then very apprehensive of Zola for quite a time afterwards, understandably!!

K9: Ok Wandy being attacked will often produce an overly defensive dog when "meeting" other dogs that she doesnt know. This will not be having any significant effect on her temperament now...

Her actions of guarding are acts of dominance, she is trying to keep your other dog away, own the food & your attention so to speak as she see's these things (& others I bet) as resources she now feels "entitled" to.

Your other dog isnt willing to back down under these circumstances & is stepping up to the challenge, because that what Wandy is doing, challenging.

Last night however was sightly different. I was laying on the loungeroom floor, with Wandy at my feet. When Zola, who had been asleep on her bed came in, Wandy started growling and Zola just went for her.I leapt up and yelled at Zola to get out, which fell on deaf ears. I then picked up one of their toys and whacked Zola a few times with it to try and get her off. She was standing over Wandy with her jaws over over her neck. Unfortunately neither of them had their collars on, so it was difficult to drag Zola off, although I did in the end and OH and I spent the next few minutes yelling at dogs to get to their beds. Not the most useful behaviour I know, but it was quite scary! Zola got a couple of whacks, and was sent to bed. No blood was spilt, but I know Wandy was psychologically bleeding

K9: This was an ascertive act on her part, no longer requiring the elevated position on your lap to mount an attack.

She was far from psychologically bleeding, she was skulking as she feels you have no right to interfere in her warfare...

Zola is always on lead outside at night, as we live on 5 acres with the odd roo coming through. So, Zola had her wee, then Wandy has to wee over Zolas, fine. On the way back to the house Zola decided to leap at Wandy, dont know whether it was a continuation of the previous incident, but I didnt want it to be. So I pushed Zola to the ground and started yelling at her what a witch she was, blah, blah, blah etc. I didnt let her up for about 30seconds, until I felt she had "heard" me. She then acted very submissive, went straight to her bed and stayed there all night. Usually they will try and sneak up onto our bed.

K9: what you didnt wasnt bad but wont have any lasting effect, in fact the best approach is PRO active not RE ACTIVE...

Side note that I read that your dog has no effective recall? As she needs to be on leash if there may be a distraction?

What can I do to lessen 1). Wandys behaviour? 2). the attacks? 3). Zolas reactiveness?

K9: First we need to stop labelling one as the instigator, both these dogs are out of pack order & need to be re structured.

Second I am in NSW so cant drop over & put an end to this fast but...

I really think that you need to at least start the following until you either see me when I am there or another qualified behaviourist who will stop this crap right now.

1. My Traiangle of Temptation program, see links on my web site www.k9force.net or at the top of the training forum it is pinned.

2. Research the NILIF program, also on my site & other places. Nothing in Life is free.

3. If you email me I will send you some notes on crate training, get some crates & take charge of your dogs freedom.

4. You need to teach these dogs some mannners, so at least a small amount of obedience will be needed, this can be taught in the TOT, used daily.

5. Adpat the mindset in your home that you are the boss, & you are a Tyrant at that! You will have to be overdominating to drop these two down some pegs. Stay off the floor with the dogs, no dogs on your lap, lounges, beds etc etc.

The more you become distressed over this, the higher they will become in the pack.

Edited January 22, 2008 by K9 Force

[Lab_Rat]

Hi All!

Thanks for your stories and help, made me feel quite a bit better about the whole situation!

They are both going ok, and like I said in the first post their behaviour is only intermittent, but I know if I don't do something NOW, it will only get worse!

Neither of them have been on the bed at all for the last two days & nights. Neither of them have been on the lounge either, although I must mention, they very rarely get up there with me, only by themselves..........anyway! They both have an individual bed on the lounge room floor, where they are put and told to stay!

They are both sitting near me, and next to each other at the moment!

K9, thanks so much for you comments, they have made alot of sense - especially to do with Wandy, I really see now thats what her behaviour is! Duh! (I am blonde ).

I read the triangle of temptation a while ago, and will read it again. In fact I think I even printed it out! Haven't heard of the NILIF program tho, will definitely look at it.The last point will be the hardest, the tyrant bit that is, but in order to have two sane dogs in the house i will be going there.....

I will also drop you an email.

Thanks again everyone, its nice to know you're not alone in such a confusing, frustrating predicament!

[Lab_Rat]

Just wanted to give a bit of an update on my two!

At the moment they are going quite well.

There have been no confrontations inside (which are the ones that worry me, as to me they are much more about territory/protection issues and always seem to be near a human), but no real serious outside barneys either.

Neither of them are allowed on the bed, on the lounge or on kitchen chairs AT ALL anymore! Wandys fave seat was at the table, on a chair. Not anymore! They have a mat each in the loungeroom where they are put and told to stay, which 90% of the time they do. They have always eaten after us, so thats not a problem. They still want to get up on the bed in the mornings and trying to convince OH that its just not happening at the moment isnt easy, but they have stayed on the floor so far.

They still get funny (not haha, but beady of the eyes and alert!) after their night time meal, but I am getting that sorted too. They eat seperately (always have), but I hang around and pick up their bowl as soon as they are finished. I also put Zola on a lead, as she tends to want to follow Wandy everywhere and hassle, so I have control of her!

There has been a couple of episodes of Zola going up to Wandy, who then starts growling! Luckily I have been there each time and told Zola to back off, and lo and behold she has listened, and LOOKED at me too, so I know she has understood!

So, at this point in time I am happy with how they are. I have a feeling that Wandy is going to be harder to convince than Zola that WE are the boss, and she doesnt need to be how she is anymore. I feel that Zolas actions are more teenage rebellion, and its a big game to her(I could be way off, but thats what I sense), but Wandys are full on, serious leadership issues which I fear we have ingrained over time, unknowingly!

Im reading Cesar again, cant believe how much I am picking up this time and how much i missed previously.

I am really hoping that K9 Force do venture over to Perth, I know all my family (2 and 4 legs) could do with some training!

So thanks again to all who gave me some advice or reassurance, you have helped immensely!

RG

[Tonymc]

RG, great to hear things are improving!!!Notice how many times we must change inorder for the Dogs to change.

If you follows Steve"s advice, you cannot go wrong. Tony

[~JoLu~]

Yay RG You go girl