First Time Puppy Owner Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 (edited) I wouldn't use anything labelled "homeopathic", for anything, ever.You may as well use lolly water. Pseudo-science at its best. Odette have you ever used them personally? Nope, and don't intend to. I think "homeopathic" is a scam. Im speaking from a human medicine background, medicine or treatment labelled "homeopathic" doesn't undergo the same level of testing, scrutiny or regulation that traditional medicine does - it doesn't even need to show efficacy like traditional medicine does. I can't imagine that animal medicine would be any different. Quite simply - I don't think it is any different to a placebo. In fact, I find the whole premise ridiculous, and think it is a waste of money (not to mention dangerous when used in place of traditional, proven medicine). Odette evidently you are in the medical industry - thus you must be familiar with the extreme side effects of keeping any living being on cortisone for extended periods of time and it cumulative effects on bones? So do you propose that I continue you to administer cortisone to a dog that is 1 yr and 3 weeks old periodically for the rest of it's life? How long do you think I would foreseeably have with my dog before his body caved in and he had to be put to sleep? I respect your opinion as everyone is entitled to theirs ok. Yet this is not a question of whether or not you believe in conventional or unconventional medicines (ps I am as skeptical as the next person) but more over seeking suggestions and advice in respect to alternatives. Thank you Anissa - I think you are probably the most learnered here regarding homeopathic remedies. We are currently seeing a homeopathic vet - I didn't have much of a chance to talk to him about the vaccination process you see, so was not quite sure of what it involved, administration etc (was going to speak to him more on the next visit about it). We are seeing him about allergies and his low immune sytem and he is trying to correct this in Benson. He did offer the idea of homeopathic remedies over vaccination - yet I am leaning towards getting him vaccinated one more time and then titre testing there afterward. Edited March 12, 2008 by First Time Puppy Owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 FTPO - If he is already immune, you cannot boost immunity. Therefore you'd be giving the vaccine for no reason, with no benefit. As I understand it, when a vaccination works (ie puppy no longer had maternal antibodies that interfered etc and had a response to the vaccine), the vaccine stimulates humoral immunity (antibodies) as WELL as cell mediated immunity. The memory cells last for years. You cannot create 'more' by vaccinating, once it's done, it's done. If you titer test now, you will just be finding out if his puppy shots 'worked'. If they did, he'll be immune, if they didn't....I would vaccinate him as long as he is as healthy as he's going to be. I'm no expert but if it's wrong, there's plenty of dol'ers who can clear this up hopefully If you're happy to titer test in the future, you may as well start now rather than risking overvaccination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 (edited) I wouldn't use anything labelled "homeopathic", for anything, ever.You may as well use lolly water. Pseudo-science at its best. Odette have you ever used them personally? Nope, and don't intend to. I think "homeopathic" is a scam. Im speaking from a human medicine background, medicine or treatment labelled "homeopathic" doesn't undergo the same level of testing, scrutiny or regulation that traditional medicine does - it doesn't even need to show efficacy like traditional medicine does. I can't imagine that animal medicine would be any different. Quite simply - I don't think it is any different to a placebo. In fact, I find the whole premise ridiculous, and think it is a waste of money (not to mention dangerous when used in place of traditional, proven medicine). Odette evidently you are in the medical industry - thus you must be familiar with the extreme side effects of keeping any living being on cortisone for extended periods of time and it cumulative effects on bones? So do you propose that I continue you to administer cortisone to a dog that is 1 yr and 3 weeks old periodically for the rest of it's life? How long do you think I would foreseeably have with my dog before his body caved in and he had to be put to sleep? I respect your opinion as everyone is entitled to theirs ok. Yet this is not a question of whether or not you believe in conventional or unconventional medicines (ps I am as skeptical as the next person) but more over seeking suggestions and advice in respect to alternatives. Thank you Anissa - I think you are probably the most learnered here regarding homeopathic remedies. We are currently seeing a homeopathic vet - I didn't have much of a chance to talk to him about the vaccination process you see, so was not quite sure of what it involved, administration etc (was going to speak to him more on the next visit about it). We are seeing him about allergies and his low immune sytem and he is trying to correct this in Benson. He did offer the idea of homeopathic remedies over vaccination - yet I am leaning towards getting him vaccinated one more time and then titre testing there afterward. You can take my advice or leave it, its not my money or my animal Im a research scientist, I have a PhD in medicine from Melbourne University. In fact, I did my PhD in a bone biology/breast cancer lab. There is not a shred of evidence to support homeopathy. It is a pseudoscience. Not a single piece of peer-reviewed research out there to suggest any action above or beyond a placebo. Or clinical trial data. You may as well inject distilled water, and hope that it clears up on its own. I know you are looking at alternatives, but it is situations such as your own that drive these companies - desperate people looking for alternatives. Now there ARE alternatives available, im sure, but homeopathy is a load of crock (serially diluting a drug until the drug is no longer detected in the solution.. Excuse me for asking, but where is the proof of principle? How exactly is it supposed to work?) Why are "natural" or "alternative" medicines not liable to the same scrutiny as traditional medicines? Because they are "natural"? Injecting a sick dog (or person) with a solution so dilute that the drug is no longer detectable is more dangerous, if you ask me. And irresponsible. What exactly is wrong with your dog? Maybe I can help you research some alternatives that have some evidence-based support, Im happy to help you with that, if you want the help. Edited March 12, 2008 by Odette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Was the lump due to the vacc or did the vet hit muscle which can also cause a lump I'm not sure - how would you know?!?! I mean if this helps it came up a few days later and stuck around for a week and a half to two. The exact same thing happened with my puppy. It's a reaction to the adjuvant, clears up on its own after a week or so. The third vaccine didn't cause the lump. My vet said that they had contacted the manufacturer of the vaccine. i wouldn't be worried about it at all, if that's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Not everything suffers adverse reactions to cortisone. If its managed properly and dosed accordingly, dogs can live perfectly normal lives. We have many clients who's dogs have been on immune suppressive doses of cortisone (which is much much higher than the anti inflammatory dose given to itchy dogs) since puppies for immune mediated disease and lived normal lives to normal ages with no side effects whatsoever... I'm not saying there are no risks, but if its used correctly, a dog can live a perfectly normal, healthy life on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 Ok Odette please help. He had his last (vaccine) injection at 14 weeks previously he did not get a lump on his back from it. Vet also put in microchip - but it was definitely from the vaccine as they were done in different spots and she shaved a little to put the microchip in. He was born on the 18/02/07 and was fine up until the 20th of Nov 07 mind you his coat was never great but now is dreadful even though he gets fish oil, ep oil and flaxseed oil. I have done absolutely everything to stop him from scratching and biting himself, flea treated the yard even. He just keep scratching and biting himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahona Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Off topic (sorry FTPO), but Odette, I have used homeopathy for myself and my husband has used homeopathy for his food intolerances (which were cured in 3 days after commencing use of the homeopathic remedies). How do you claim that it does not work and is lolly water, when I and other people, have experienced the benefits of this system of medicine first hand? FTPO: Good luck with finding a solution for Benson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Ok Odette please help. He had his last (vaccine) injection at 14 weeks previously he did not get a lump on his back from it. Vet also put in microchip - but it was definitely from the vaccine as they were done in different spots and she shaved a little to put the microchip in. He was born on the 18/02/07 and was fine up until the 20th of Nov 07 mind you his coat was never great but now is dreadful even though he gets fish oil, ep oil and flaxseed oil. I have done absolutely everything to stop him from scratching and biting himself, flea treated the yard even. He just keep scratching and biting himself. I have known many dogs that have had the lump after their vaccine and haven't turned into itchie scratchie dogs. I would not be blaming the vaccine for his skin condition. Have you tried him on antihistamines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peigirl Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Off topic (sorry FTPO), but Odette, I have used homeopathy for myself and my husband has used homeopathy for his food intolerances (which were cured in 3 days after commencing use of the homeopathic remedies).How do you claim that it does not work and is lolly water, when I and other people, have experienced the benefits of this system of medicine first hand? FTPO: Good luck with finding a solution for Benson Ditto Ahona. I have used homeopathy on myself and my dog on mulitple occasions with great results. Odette simply because you don't believe in them does not classify all homeopathics as lolly water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) And just because a few people out there have had spontaneous remission of their cancer after praying doesn't mean that their prayers were answered by an angel. Sometimes things just resolve themselves. I'm not telling you anything that isn't fact. There isn't any evidence to support that they work. If a large-scale study was released, showing clinical efficacy of homeopathic medicines, then my view would be different, but as it stands - there simply is no proof! I wonder if I had've supplemented your "treatments" with a placebo (which in effect is what homeopathy is) whether you had've had the same response. i don't work on the basis of "faith healing". I also don't work on the principle of ripping people off, or having them invest their money or hopes into something that, and i love this quote, "is pseudoscience at its very best and quackery at its worst". I'm not the enemy. I actually care about people and their well-being, that's why Im in this industry I don't want to see you comprimise your health, your dog's health, or your hard earned money on something that has no proof of principle attached to it, and that's exactly what homeopathy is. Edited March 13, 2008 by Odette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Off topic (sorry FTPO), but Odette, I have used homeopathy for myself and my husband has used homeopathy for his food intolerances (which were cured in 3 days after commencing use of the homeopathic remedies).How do you claim that it does not work and is lolly water, when I and other people, have experienced the benefits of this system of medicine first hand? FTPO: Good luck with finding a solution for Benson Ditto Ahona. I have used homeopathy on myself and my dog on mulitple occasions with great results. Odette simply because you don't believe in them does not classify all homeopathics as lolly water. I'm not the only one who doesn't believe in it - pretty much the whole respected scientific and medical industry doesn't believe in it! There isn't any proof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Ok Odette please help. He had his last (vaccine) injection at 14 weeks previously he did not get a lump on his back from it. Vet also put in microchip - but it was definitely from the vaccine as they were done in different spots and she shaved a little to put the microchip in. He was born on the 18/02/07 and was fine up until the 20th of Nov 07 mind you his coat was never great but now is dreadful even though he gets fish oil, ep oil and flaxseed oil. I have done absolutely everything to stop him from scratching and biting himself, flea treated the yard even. He just keep scratching and biting himself. Now Im not a vet (far from it), but let's have a look at what might be in the vaccine that might cause the reaction. What vaccine was it? Do you have the manufacturer's details? It might be an idea to contact them directly and let them know, because it may have happened with other dogs (as you would with a human vaccine reaction). What sort of dog do you have? Is he scratching and biting in the same area where the vaccine was administered? He may have had a reaction to the adjuvant, it's not out of the question, but i dont know what the vaccine is in.... Or he may just have allergies. As puggy_puggy said, try antihistamines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucknow Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 November could coincide with the 'allergy season' for your dog, and unless I did my maths wrong was nowhere near the time the puppy vacc's were given? Are you positive that there are no fleas (since you said you flea treated the yard even). Have you had the skin checked since the flare up, at the very least your vet should be able to prescribe something to alleviate symptoms while you search for a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahona Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Personal experience not being considered proof? That's what really pisses me off about modern medicine. One of the most bizzare statements I have ever read was by a doctor denouncing naturopathy, where he said that naturopathy claims about shoring up the immune system to provide protection from disease are ridiculous, because people taking immune surpressing drugs after organ transplants, get rarer forms of cancer, where apparently they should get more forms of normal cancer, coz naturopathy posits that lowered immune systems cause cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Personal experience not being considered proof?That's what really pisses me off about modern medicine. One of the most bizzare statements I have ever read was by a doctor denouncing naturopathy, where he said that naturopathy claims about shoring up the immune system to provide protection from disease are ridiculous, because people taking immune surpressing drugs after organ transplants, get rarer forms of cancer, where apparently they should get more forms of normal cancer, coz naturopathy posits that lowered immune systems cause cancer. You need a certain amount of people to have an effect for it to be statistically significant. Modern medicine is regulated and has to go through stringent trials, show proof of principle and pass a number of safety measures to be accepted and administered. That's a good thing! Natural medicine isn't subject to the same controls, and as such, you can market pretty much anything as a natural medicine and sell it. My aunt had throat cancer, for years. She passed away a couple of years ago. A naturopath advised her to discontinue her chemotherapy and instead go on a course of herbal medicines that he prescribed (at a premium price Ill add). I was mortified. If there was proof that it worked, Id support it 100%, but frankly there isn't any proof. We're not trying to rip you off, we;'re trying to protect you from quacks and frauds who WOULD rip you off. Your anger is targeted the wrong way! But anyway. It's your health, your money! That's the beauty of our society - you have the freedom to make the choice in what you want to use (and the income to dispose of to do so ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Ahona _ Im a little confused about the statement you made about the immune system and cancer.. Can you clarify? Are you saying that the immune system is involved in cancer progression? Or initiating cancer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahona Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 That naturopathy believes an overburdened immune system can lead to a more rapid progression of cancer yes and even cause it in some instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 That naturopathy believes an overburdened immune system can lead to a more rapid progression of cancer yes and even cause it in some instances. What sort of cancer exactly? Overburdened - do you mean immune compromised? Or the opposite? Tumour immune surveillance is an interesting topic in cancer research, there is actually a lab at the Perter Mac in Melbourne, Mark Smyth's lab, who have been working in this field for years. Basically, what they are looking at is if tumours express molecules on the surface that can be recognised by NK cells in the immune system and targeted for destruction. Often, chemotherapeutics will cause problems by decreasing the number of white blood cells in a system. This can open the way for secondary infections. I'm not sure about it causing cancer though... Plenty of things cause cancer, it's not quite that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 FTPO - personally I wouldnt risk it. Stick with modern vaccines. After watching a child go through a severe case of the measles because his mother didnt believe in modern medicine and went the homeopathic route I personally will not risk it. Don't get me wrong I have used homeopathic remedies myself and I have used some on my dogs as well (I tend to go more towards naturopathic remedies though) but when it comes to immunising against a preventable diseases I wont take the chance. Titre testing - I'm still a bit wary as you dont know when your dog's immunity falls below safe levels and when your dog is at risk. If you dont show your dog and you have no plans of putting the dog in a boarding kennel in the future then a C3 may be enough for your dog. Odette - I respect what you are saying as I have dealt with my fair share of "quacks" over the years - including one that had my mother convinced she had throat cancer which was never diagnosed by a qualified doctor. However that hasnt scared me away from natural remedies. They arent necessarily designed to cure as is claimed by some but they can ease symptoms, quicken recovery time and aid in healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odette Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Oh many natural remedies out there are great! Just because its natural doesn't mean it won't work some are really effective - St John's Wort for depression is a great example. On the flip side though, just because it's labelled "natural" also doesn't mean it WILL work - there needs to be tighter regulation of the industry (especially when they can interfere or cause an adverse reaction when used with traditional medicine). Herbal remedies can be great. Homeopathy on the other hand - no proof at all. I'm unconvinced (and definitely wouldn't waste my money!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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