Pete.the.dog Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I'm interested in starting to train pete in drive, have been reading K9 Force posts for hours - literally So from what I've read, Pete's over-excitement around other dogs is "high prey drive" What I have read about training in drive is - and I'm massively paraphrasing here - with dog leashed revv them up with a toy then reward command compliance with giving the toy My question is, and surely its been raised before I just haven't come across it, that while Pete is "high prey drive" with dogs and cats etc, he isn't overly into chasing balls, toys, except for one particular toy (head on a rope type - we have another head on a rope but only one of them is pete's favourite) I read something about it being a toy that you control, so going and buying a new toy and using this, but I'm not confident Pete would be interested in it, or is the point that if you move it around really fast and the dog can't get it his prey drive will make him interested? I hope I've made sense, I'm still trying to get my blonde little head around all this.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 So from what I've read, Pete's over-excitement around other dogs is "high prey drive" Hi PTD Probably not. What you have sounds like play drive, and when it concerns other dogs, it is more of a problem that will compete with prey drive (chasing, catching, satisfying). If you take a look on youtube,there are a number of examples (good and bad) regarding building prey drive. Type in "building prey drive" into the search field. You will see a pattern forming with dogs frustration levels played with. Its not really just rev em up and reward,...you need to create much more interest than that. Maybe you could attend one of K9s workshops? Not all dogs are suitable for using the method with. The more you have to start with the easier it is to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) First you really need to get Pete well and truly addicted to the "drive" game. To the point that Pete recognises YOU as the deliverer of drive satisfaction. When you have the "game" sorted and working really well under minimal distraction, THEN you generalise the training in places such as parks etc. BUT, being in the (eg) park will be distracting enough without the added distraction of other animals, so pick a time when it is quiet/empty. This should provide enough distraction to be a distraction, but not so much that he won't be interested in the drive "game", and realise that "hey, you provide me with drive satisfaction even here!!". Then you work it so that the distractions, bit by bit (use distance as your 'friend') increase, but not so much that his interest in the "game" dissipates completely. You will most likely find that his intensity for the tug will reduce when distractions are introduced, which means you'll need to work a little harder (ie energetically) to make it really really interesting. And keep the sessions nice and short. But work them frequently. And if/when you notice something that you know will take Pete's attention away from you, get in there with your "drive" word ..... get him 'onto' you before he is 'onto' the distraction. In this way he'll be able to orientate, but hopefully not to the point that he becomes completely unaware of you and the "game". With this sort of work, he'll come to believe that being with you, drive satisfaction will occur, and therefore the other things in life that he sees should prove to be a less strong trigger than it is at present. How successful drive training in depends on the genetics of your dog. I have a Rhodesian Ridgeback. His prey drive is not the same as the prey drive of a (eg) Malinois. Which means I have to work hard to keep him going into tug in times of strong outside distractions. Whilst his prey drive may not carry the intensity of other dog breeds, I am very glad for what I have built up as it has seen us successfully calling away in instances where he otherwise might not have, and boy!!! with such speed and a look of intense expectation of something great! Without looking back to your avatar, I think Pete is a Pug, from memory? You'll need to take into consideration that his drive is unlikely to match to a high degree of that of other known "high prey drive" breeds, but that's not to say it is not worth working for and making the most of whatever "prey drive" nature has given him. ETA: Correction - I see Pete is NOT a pug, LOL. But the essence of what I'm saying still applies. You should work him on a long line whilst you are building up his drive. If he gets an opportunity to self satisfy his "drive" from other things than you, it will unravel what you are working for. I use drive training in combination with e-collar training. The two things are very complimentary to each other. ETA: Working him through the TOT program is another way of working "in drive" but in that instance, the drive satisfaction is food. I'd recommend you follow the program (pinned to the top of the training forum - K9 Force is the author) as this gives you the opportunity to work drive in two different ways, depending on whether your dog is into food in that moment, or tug. It also helps to increase pack drive, which is a big advantage to any training you endeavour. Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Dogdude: Thank you for that clarification re play drive/ prey drive, will get youtubing ---- Erny: Thank you for that fantastic explanation, will any toy work to get him addicted? As I said he only has one he likes, but he is used to playing with that on his own, so should i introduce a brand new toy? p.s. Did have a quick chuckle when i thought that you thought Pete looked like a pug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Thank you for that fantastic explanation, will any toy work to get him addicted? As I said he only has one he likes, but he is used to playing with that on his own, so should i introduce a brand new toy? What sort of toy is it? If it is suitable as a tug, then I'd use the one he loves ..... but you need to remove it so that he never has free access to it. Once your training is well and truly under way, you'll find that you can pick up almost anything and use it. But to develop drive, you want to use something Pete really loves. p.s. Did have a quick chuckle when i thought that you thought Pete looked like a pug Correction : It's not that I thought your Pete looked like a pug. It's just that I know a dog named "Pete" and he is a pug. Known by a few as "Pete the Pug", which is why I had "Pug" in my head. I forgot to look at your avatar before I began posting. Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Thank you for that fantastic explanation, will any toy work to get him addicted? As I said he only has one he likes, but he is used to playing with that on his own, so should i introduce a brand new toy? What sort of toy is it? p.s. Did have a quick chuckle when i thought that you thought Pete looked like a pug Correction : It's not that I thought your Pete looked like a pug. It's just that I know a dog named "Pete" and he is a pug. Known by a few as "Pete the Pug", which is why I had "Pug" in my head. I forgot to look at your avatar before I began posting. haha no i did read that edit and figured out you were thinking of another dog, but before i read the edit i was amused it is a rope with a plastic 'head' in the middle of it - its the only toy he likes to play with. we have a pink one and a purple one, and he only likes the purple one... ADD: dogdude I am going to steve in April - can't wait, but wanted a head start Edited December 21, 2009 by Pete.the.dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) it is a rope with a plastic 'head' in the middle of it - its the only toy he likes to play with. we have a pink one and a purple one, and he only likes the purple one... Well, if it is the ONLY one he'll play with, you don't have much choice. However, I like to use soft tugs, something really comfortable for the dog to bite hold of and keep that hold, otherwise they can be put off from tugging. Plastic isn't necessarily the ideal for that. You can use that toy to get going with, and then switch over to something better for tugging purposes, perhaps. I have many people tell me their dog will ONLY work with such and such toy. But when I bring out a pocket tug (which I just use to get dogs going), they often enjoy that, to their owners amazement. Sometimes it's a matter of making the toy seem like fun to get them interested. People have a tendency to give up too soon, too easily and sometimes it's the preference of the owner that has a subtle influence over the dog's preference. Just sometimes. Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 it is a rope with a plastic 'head' in the middle of it - its the only toy he likes to play with. we have a pink one and a purple one, and he only likes the purple one... Well, if it is the ONLY one he'll play with, you don't have much choice. However, I like to use soft tugs, something really comfortable for the dog to bite hold of and keep that hold, otherwise they can be put off from tugging. Plastic isn't necessarily the ideal for that. You can use that toy to get going with, and then switch over to something better for tugging purposes, perhaps. I have many people tell me their dog will ONLY work with such and such toy. But when I bring out a pocket tug (which I just use to get dogs going), they often enjoy that, to their owners amazement. Sometimes it's a matter of making the toy seem like fun to get them interested. People have a tendency to give up too soon, too easily. Yes should have clarified, its the only toy of the ones he has, that he will seek out to play with. It's not like I've unsuccessfully attempted to get him interested in a wide variety. Googles pocket tug - will buy one and see how we go Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Yes should have clarified, its the only toy of the ones he has, that he will seek out to play with. It's not like I've unsuccessfully attempted to get him interested in a wide variety. You may find it is different when he understands that there is a toy that YOU will play with him with. You can purchase a pocket tug, but once you get things going you'll most likely need to upgrade. I use a soft tug that I purchased through DogQuip in South Australia. If you contact him and let him know you spoke with Judi at Pro-K9 and that I mentioned you might do well with the soft tugs such as what I use, he'll be able to help you. Here's a picture of the type of tug/s I mean .... Check with Kurt - my only uncertainty is that I can't see your dog and these types might be a bit too large for Pete. Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 dogdude I am going to steve in April - can't wait, but wanted a head start You'll learn a lot by attending the workshop. In the meantime, just spend the time working up Pete's drive and hunkering for the tug toy. If you have some drive built up for it, this will help when you attend the workshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Yes should have clarified, its the only toy of the ones he has, that he will seek out to play with. It's not like I've unsuccessfully attempted to get him interested in a wide variety. You may find it is different when he understands that there is a toy that YOU will play with him with. You can purchase a pocket tug, but once you get things going you'll most likely need to upgrade. I use a soft tug that I purchased through DogQuip in South Australia. If you contact him and let him know you spoke with Judi at Pro-K9 and that I mentioned you might do well with the soft tugs such as what I use, he'll be able to help you. Here's a picture of the type of tug/s I mean .... Check with Kurt - my only uncertainty is that I can't see your dog and these types might be a bit too large for Pete. Thanks for that, will get in contact with him when I'm back in Adelaide on wednesday - petey is about the height of a german shepherd but a skinny little greyhound build, does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 You could check out the Natural Dog Training Blog. It has a lot of good tips about working with your dog's drive. Actually, I've looked around a lot lately and the methods on there are the ones I like most. Even though the explanations are a little loopy and put some people off, the early exercises are really spot on with the research I've done into rough and tumble play recently. And it's more geared towards the average dog than all the Schutzhund stuff. I think there's a tendancy to be a bit gung-ho with drive training. If you rev them too much you can make them stressed, which is not good, obviously. The difference between a little frustration and stress is sometimes not that obvious. Erik has a "we're about to play an awesome game" cue. It didn't take long for him to turn into a bit of a homing missile whenever he hears that cue. He drops whatever he's doing, runs over to me and downs, waiting for the second cue that tells him to chase and bite whatever I have in my hand. Cues make everything easier. I actually think that cue is stronger than his recall at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) And it's more geared towards the average dog than all the Schutzhund stuff.I think there's a tendancy to be a bit gung-ho with drive training. Huh . Who's talking about Schutzhund here? And "gung-ho" with drive training? What do you mean? Personally, I think Pete.the.dog would find it easier to wait until she gets to go to Steve's workshop, and just spend the time in between building her dog's drive/attraction to the tug. 1. Being 'there' and being able to actually see it in work adds a lot to just reading about it. 2. There are various ways different trainers train. If PTD follows at least one way first (the one she can learn the best from) then she is less likely to either make errors or train in a way that she later decides she wishes she didn't. Erik has a "we're about to play an awesome game" cue. It didn't take long for him to turn into a bit of a homing missile whenever he hears that cue. He drops whatever he's doing, runs over to me and downs, waiting for the second cue that tells him to chase and bite whatever I have in my hand. Cues make everything easier. I actually think that cue is stronger than his recall at the moment... You don't think that's what we're already talking about? I don't follow your post, Corvus. Edited December 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Pete, you can also train in food drive if you have a dog who has a higher food drive than prey drive (like my dog). When I first started TID it was all about the game, I didn't introduce commands (bar our 'ready to work' cue) for quite some time. Building drive is hugely important before you go on to introducing commands or training outside of your back yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Building drive is hugely important before you go on to introducing commands or training outside of your back yard. Agree with Huski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Building drive is hugely important before you go on to introducing commands or training outside of your back yard. Agree with Huski. Like you said Erny, it's all about getting them addicted to the game first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I'm going to do a bit of hijacking - sorry Pete but it's too tempting (and you did say you thought Pete was part sighthound) I'm starting obedience with my Borzoi next year. One in particular has very high prey drive - but it's about real prey, not toys. She's hot on the lure so she will chase plastic if it moves fast enough, but toys and tug don't do it for her. Does anyone have experience of a sighthound with a great focus on rabbits and hares but little on toys having their drive successfully re-directed to a toy/tug? Or am I better sticking with other reinforcers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laeral Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I train my GSD in prey drive. Like others have said its all about building drive before you are ready to add distraction, dont be disheartened if pete isnt interested in his toy when around other dogs. It took a while before Mica would work oustide of our property. But now the foundation has been laid she will happily work for her toy anywhere. Now to add more distractions... I think there's a tendancy to be a bit gung-ho with drive training. If you rev them too much you can make them stressed, which is not good, obviously. The difference between a little frustration and stress is sometimes not that obvious. Sorry but Mica doesnt get stressed if I 'rev her up to much' she LOVES her tug toy. The more reved up to work she can get the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 I just looked at the Natural Dog website and found it really easy to read/follow. When I get back home (oh sweet, non-relative infested, home) I will get some tug of war toys - the ones Erny mentioned (I'm assuming as you didnt further comment on size of pete they'll be ok, but will double check with supplier) and work on building the drive as I read on ND site, hopefully building it up over time that I can use tug-of-war on walks when pete gets excited by other dogs. Depending on how well we progess, I think I'll leave it at that until I see Steve. Thanks all for your help and advice I'm not trying to close the discussion, just going to bed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Hi Diva If your dog has a good natural prey drive regarding small fluffy live things, then it shouldn't be too hard to transfer that interest onto something else. You just have to make the transition slowly. Using a tug is normally the end product of gaining drive interest. They are not generally taught from the start using one. The drive is slowly transfered from anything like a bit of fur on a stick and string, to chasing a rag or frisbee, to later varying the item to something more practical like a tuggy. (or any variation that suites your dog) Dogs are not often interested in tuggys at all. Mine definately wasnt. The key to making something interesting is in the way you use and present it, and the way you manage the interest, and keep the momentum going. One important point is that prey always moves away from the predator. Never towards it. Its not often easy to catch either, and can sometimes frustrate the dog when he doesn't catch it, making him try harder next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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