Prey Drive - Way To Test?

[Kavik]

corvus

With the bunny example, it could be that the dog has not yet made an association with bunnies. A caged bunny is likely to get a different response from a dog that has not seen a bunny before than a bunny running in an open field. The caged bunny may get merely curiousity until it moves, whereas the bunny running is likely to get a much more dynamic response. Once a dog has experienced chasing a bunny, it may react with much more excitement and drive towards a caged bunny.

With nerves effecting drive - if the dog has poor nerves or is stressed, it is less likely to go into drive. So the dog could have good drive in a familiar environment but be stressed in a more busy environment and not show the same behaviour.

[Vickie]

never mind

Edited March 3, 2010 by Vickie

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Wouldn't you be able to tell if you saw it?

K9: You would get an idea, but it would need be tested formally to guage a true level of drive.

C: Asking. I'm trying to understand exactly what you're talking about when you speak of a dog's level of drive. Its level of drive in relation to what? Natural level? Artificial level? The level during one or another specific activity? Are we talking a general level of drive or are we talking the level of drive a dog has for particular activities at particular times?

K9: The level of drive the dog has vs the level required to get the results you need.

C: What, are you five? If you don't want to share basic information, then what are you doing on a discussion forum?

K9: I did not know it was a pre requesite to join that I had to answer every question asked of me. I think your closer to five than me...

C: I'll be charitable and assume we are once again perhaps talking about different things.

K9: I am sure the "charity" will continue through a series of PMs...

C: Schutzhund trainers like to talk about "nerve" as something that describes how much pressure a dog will work through. It's usually used in conjunction with "drive" as a measure of a dog's overall working ability, as a dog with plenty of drive might have its drive evaporate the moment a little pressure is introduced. Are we on the same page?

K9: Sounds like your onto something, see, you can do it, but it is not restricted to Schutzhund or Schutzhund trainers.

C: My question was, how does "nerve" by the above meaning have anything to do with whether a dog sees a stationary, caged rabbit and wants to kill it, or whether it sees a stationary, caged rabbit and is merely moderately interested? Where's the pressure in this situation? The drive might change depending on what the rabbit is doing, but any pressure is constant, so changes in drive must be a result of the stimulus rather than a dog's nerve.

K9: what do you think might happen if, you showed a dog a Rabbit for the first time and the moment the dog laid eyes on the rabbit, you introduced a high level punisher?

Do you think if you repeated this exercise the dog would see the rabbit as a trigger to prey or avoidance - flight?

Same Rabbit, same dog, different response. What if the dog was overly nervous and just the sight of the rabbit triggered avoidance do you think if the rabbit ran, the dog would just chase it?

C: My original example was dogs that have loads of drive for playing chase games not responding to a rabbit unless it runs. As opposed to dogs that go into drive the instant they become aware of a rabbit in the vicinity, whether it's moving or not. The pressure is still constant, so the controlling factor must be the stimulus (bunny). My point was a dog that doesn't know what to do with a bunny on sight/smell is not a very prey driven dog in my books.

K9: these are live animals, they respond to various stimuli.

C: If you don't want to talk about it no one's gonna make you. I'll just go ask some people that have done your course. And some of the Schutzhund trainers I know.

K9: Go for it...

C: Are we sparring? In all honesty, I thought we were having an adult discussion. You'll know when I'm sparring.

K9: Please wake me if I miss it, it is clear to many on here what your attempting to do, I knew that before I read the copies of your PMs...

C: Thanks for the tip. I think I mentioned before that I'm starting a PhD on dog behaviour at the end of the month, so yeah, I'm doing just that.

K9: Yeah more books, just what you need...

C: Did you know most of what we know about neurobiology, biochemistry and learning theory comes from studies of rats? They added primates and dogs once they got going on something.

K9: yep, thats correct, but those studies only provide a basic study of how the animals functions, it varies greatly after that level research.

C: Most of it is pretty comparable in mammals, and behaviour follows much the same rules in any species that has a brain. The differences are in the details.

K9: Correct again, but when your missing the details you go back to species theory, I can tell you that wont get you anywhere forward of where you are. By moving back to your comfort zone, you dont accomplish anything.

C: So when I'm talking differences I compare species or individuals depending on what differences I'm discussing, and when I'm talking general concepts I treat all species as much the same.

K9: yes you do, that is probably why it isnt working for you.

C: It seems to aggravate dog people, but this is how I was taught. It's a nested approach that more or less follows taxonomy. Individual-species-genus-family-order. It doesn't get much broader than order, though.

K9: I am sure it aggravates most people who know something about the species your generalising to rank yourself with those or above those that work in said field.

I think we have travelled far enough left field now, let the OP have their thread back.

[corvus]

corvus

With the bunny example, it could be that the dog has not yet made an association with bunnies. A caged bunny is likely to get a different response from a dog that has not seen a bunny before than a bunny running in an open field. The caged bunny may get merely curiousity until it moves, whereas the bunny running is likely to get a much more dynamic response. Once a dog has experienced chasing a bunny, it may react with much more excitement and drive towards a caged bunny.

That's my point, though. How is it that some dogs know instinctively that a rabbit is a prey animal without ever having seen one, whereas others are only triggered when a rabbit runs? It seems to me that in the latter example, you could argue that it's the movement that triggers them rather than the rabbit itself. The few dogs I've met that go into drive at the sight of a stationary rabbit without ever having chased a rabbit before have been seriously prey driven dogs. I said before that this is what I think of as a prey driven dog. Seeing as they have an instinctive drive for prey, not chasing prey specifically.

[Kavik]

I see it as instinctive drive for chasing prey As the chasing (and tugging) is what they do with the prey, movement is generally what triggers it, and this is the behaviour that they exhibit that can either be a problem (and it doesn't have to be with animals - can be bikes, cars etc) or can be used in training.

An example from my own dogs. Zoe and Kaos have high prey drive, but Zoe has weak nerves and a skittish temperament. Diesel has lowish prey drive. I have kept rats and mice as pets while having the dogs. Zoe will stare at them nonstop, it is very hard to get her to focus on anything but their cage. Diesel doesn't care about them regardless of what they are doing. Kaos was interested in them, especially when they moved, but it was not too hard to get him to focus on something else. Now you might conclude that Zoe has the highest prey drive of my dogs based on that, but in terms of useable drive she doesn't, as her weak nerves means that she can shut down more easily (she is also dog aggro). Kaos has a more stable temperament and is able to remain in drive in more environments and situations. Watching them fetch a stationary toy also shows you this - Zoe runs flat out, overshoots the ball, not very controlled when she chases (but loves it!). Kaos runs very fast, but it is controlled, and he adjusts his stride to get his toy without overshooting the mark.

[corvus]

C: My question was, how does "nerve" by the above meaning have anything to do with whether a dog sees a stationary, caged rabbit and wants to kill it, or whether it sees a stationary, caged rabbit and is merely moderately interested? Where's the pressure in this situation? The drive might change depending on what the rabbit is doing, but any pressure is constant, so changes in drive must be a result of the stimulus rather than a dog's nerve.

K9: what do you think might happen if, you showed a dog a Rabbit for the first time and the moment the dog laid eyes on the rabbit, you introduced a high level punisher?

Do you think if you repeated this exercise the dog would see the rabbit as a trigger to prey or avoidance - flight?

Same Rabbit, same dog, different response. What if the dog was overly nervous and just the sight of the rabbit triggered avoidance do you think if the rabbit ran, the dog would just chase it?

I'm not talking about introducing punishers, though. That's a whole different matter. I never mentioned punishers or avoidance behaviour in my original example that you said was reward over nerves. So I asked you to expand. So I'm still not sure what you were getting at. I can certainly see how nerves can impact drive, but how is a dog that likes to tug but ignores a caged rabbit a case of reward over nerves? If we follow your reasoning, wouldn't it be a case of reward history alone? By my reasoning the dog isn't prey driven.

Thanks for your answers.

In asnwer to the OP, I don't think there are any technical terms for levels of drive, because it's more like a continuum and like K9 said, it's quite dynamic. Incidentally, the "chemical reward" that comes into play as drive builds is dopamine. Dopamine is responsible for how anticipation of a reward can feel so good - even better than the reward itself sometimes.

[corvus]

Kavik, I'm not sure if you meant to agree with me, but I think we are pretty much on the same page, and your example makes sense to me. Thanks.

[MonElite]

corvus

With the bunny example, it could be that the dog has not yet made an association with bunnies. A caged bunny is likely to get a different response from a dog that has not seen a bunny before than a bunny running in an open field. The caged bunny may get merely curiousity until it moves, whereas the bunny running is likely to get a much more dynamic response. Once a dog has experienced chasing a bunny, it may react with much more excitement and drive towards a caged bunny.

That's my point, though. How is it that some dogs know instinctively that a rabbit is a prey animal without ever having seen one, whereas others are only triggered when a rabbit runs? It seems to me that in the latter example, you could argue that it's the movement that triggers them rather than the rabbit itself. The few dogs I've met that go into drive at the sight of a stationary rabbit without ever having chased a rabbit before have been seriously prey driven dogs. I said before that this is what I think of as a prey driven dog. Seeing as they have an instinctive drive for prey, not chasing prey specifically.

I can not belive you asked this question.......

I would have thought that someone that is doing phd in animal behaviour would know the answer!

Each animal has different triggers (or a combo of) to go into prey drive.

Sight, smell, movement, potential touch plus all of it nicely packaged with past experiences triggers or doesnt trigger the dog.

And how is it? one dog has genetics towrds movement the other towards the smell.

Again with learned experiences it can change or it doesnt.

Since you have schutzhund trainers as freinds ask them how some breeders judge the tracking ability of a puppy.

I can tell you that some breeders will say that if a one day old pup rolls away from the mother for a significant distance and goes in cicrcles to get back to her to feed, rather then in a straight line, it wont do well in tracking.

[Staranais]

My original example was dogs that have loads of drive for playing chase games not responding to a rabbit unless it runs. As opposed to dogs that go into drive the instant they become aware of a rabbit in the vicinity, whether it's moving or not. The pressure is still constant, so the controlling factor must be the stimulus (bunny). My point was a dog that doesn't know what to do with a bunny on sight/smell is not a very prey driven dog in my books.

Then I guess my girl isn't a very prey driven dog. Unfortunately, I have the bruises and bite marks to prove otherwise!

My girl has heaps of prey drive for anything that moves. Movement is the drive trigger. The first time she saw a cat she was very interested by it and was keen to investigate it, but didn't go into prey drive, since the cat didn't run away. That changed the second she met a cat that ran away - and after that she would go into drive when she saw the stationary cat, since she had learned that the cat was a drive object and it would move.

She didn't magically know that the cat was a prey item the first time she saw it, she had to learn by watching it run. Just like she had to learn to go into drive on a cue, and learn to go into drive upon seeing a tug - she didn't come to me doing those things, she first had to make the association between the cue or tug and the ensuing game.

What triggers a dog into drive depends on learning, IMO, as much as genetics.

[Staranais]

OK, here's a somewhat relevant question that I've been pondering for a few days. I've heard lots of trainers talke about "play drive" as if it's a separate drive.

What is "play drive"? Is it just another synonym for prey drive, or is it closer to pack drive?

Around the house, my girl has recently started to work basic obedience happily and attentively for just play - no prey object, just me cheering her and roughing her up or chasing her round for a few steps as a reward after releasing her. I've started not to offer food for non-prey-drive training sessions, and just use praise/play instead, since it seems much more effective (and I always have it on me!)

This isn't prey drive, since there's no prey object for her to bite. Is rewarding this way simply using her pack drive? Or is it "play drive"?

[Erny]

Hi Star

Good to see you here.

I have always considered Play drive, Prey drive and Food drive to each be part of the whole. In terms of writing/talking about it, I think it is sometimes more clear (although has the potential for confusion as things become more and more dissected!!) to speak about it in this way (ie separately). I see "play" as the founder of teaching pups/dogs in preparation for the more intense response of "prey". I watch dogs in "play" drive and see how easily the adrenaline hype kicks it through to "prey" drive. I think there is a very strong connection between the two, but "play" tends to lack the intensity of "prey". Which is why I would suggest we use the "prey drive" in training - it is less open to distraction away from it, as "play" is, and therefore achieves a more dedicated response from the dog.

Not sure if that has approached your question, or whether I'm off the mark to what you intended.

Like you, when my dog is in "play", I don't use food/tug as reward (unless I decide to capture something in particular that I want him to repeat) - he enjoys the mere 'mucking around' interaction that we share.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

I see "play" as the founder of teaching pups/dogs in preparation for the more intense response of "prey". I watch dogs in "play" drive and see how easily the adrenaline hype kicks it through to "prey" drive. I think there is a very strong connection between the two, but "play" tends to lack the intensity of "prey". Which is why I would suggest we use the "prey drive" in training - it is less open to distraction away from it, as "play" is, and therefore achieves a more dedicated response from the dog.

So, you're thinking that play is just a milder form of prey drive? I was kind of thinking the opposite, that when we play she's really just getting quite worked up in pack drive. But like you say, perhaps there's a lot of overlap. Perhaps playing is a mixture of pack and prey drive. Or perhaps play really is its own drive? I don't know.

My girl definitely sees a difference between play and prey - she loves playing with me, but if I give the drive cue while we're playing, her behaviour changes immediately and she gets that much more serious, focused, intense "prey drive look" as she waits for me to produce the tug.

[corvus]

Staranais, I'm just chasing detail. I don't consider Erik a prey driven dog, despite the fact he's given me some nice bruises from time to time as well. I don't consider him a prey driven dog because he's not very interested in prey animals. It's very easy to divert his interest in chasing a living animal to chasing a toy. Much easier than it is for Kivi, in fact, and Kivi is the mellow teddy bear.

I think that it's very hard to generalise, so anything I say will be disputed with different cases and scenarios and I will inevitably be wrong on some accounts. Erik I consider to be a high drive dog because he throws himself into things without much concern for what might happen to him. He'll leap at tug toys with no considerations beyond just getting his teeth into them. I consider this play drive rather than prey drive, because he doesn't want to do similar things to my rabbits and any stalking or chasing he does just doesn't match the stalking and chasing I have seen in hunting dogs. His body language is different. More playful. And he seeks to include company, so more social.

Triggering on movement doesn't define the type of drive to me. The ease of triggering a dog on movement to me says a lot about how drivey a dog they are, but not much about what their ultimate reward is. It might be the chase alone, it might be the catch, it might be a combination, or it might even be the kill if they are that kind of dog. Maybe it's the whole thing. I've known dogs that trigger on movement and find the chase more rewarding than the catch, but still instinctively kill if they do catch. That's a prey driven dog to me. On the other hand, I've known dogs that are all about the chase and get so excited that if they ever do catch it they seriously harm or kill the animal they were chasing, but then the behaviour that follows makes me wonder if they meant to or not. Sometimes they just seem a bit lost that the chase game appears to be over. There are loads of variations, as we all know. Maybe I should be talking about chase driven dogs if we're going to define the drive by the reward.

Anyway, I don't mind if you or anyone else disagrees. I talk about this stuff with a lot of different people and we can still be friends whether they agree with me or not. I just like sharing ideas.

[Erny]

So, you're thinking that play is just a milder form of prey drive? I was kind of thinking the opposite, that when we play she's really just getting quite worked up in pack drive. But like you say, perhaps there's a lot of overlap. Perhaps playing is a mixture of pack and prey drive. Or perhaps play really is its own drive? I don't know.

But then, dogs who are not of the same family play with other dogs - so where's the "pack" drive in that? Sure, during play they would be establishing a relationship and there may be some "pack" element that derives from that but "play" IMO doesn't necessarily go to "pack". To me, "pack" behaviour relates more to the interactions between dogs (and people) who have an established relationship and would include things such as rallying around the owner; leader-follower behaviour. Certainly, social interactions such as play within the "pack" structure would/could occur, but the "play" drive isn't "pack drive". Kal, my avatar girl (bless her cotton socks) was very strong on "pack drive", very little "play drive" and next to no "prey drive". I used her pack drive to train with for the most part.

I wouldn't call "play" just a "milder form of prey drive" .... no, I think it is different. But I do not think of it as a completely separate drive.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Erny

[MonElite]

Triggering on movement doesn't define the type of drive to me. The ease of triggering a dog on movement to me says a lot about how drivey a dog they are, but not much about what their ultimate reward is.

Did anyone ever say it was?

How about a movement of a person towards the dog? Waving a stick, cracking a whip and advancing in an angry manner on the dog.

Sure it can trigger a drive, just not the one you are thinking about here.

But as a definition - prey drive is a desire of of a carnivore to persue and catch prey.

I guess for training purposes it can be adapted as - dogs desire to chase and catch fast moving OBJECTS (not always animals)

[Staranais]

But then, dogs who are not of the same family play with other dogs - so where's the "pack" drive in that? Sure, during play they would be establishing a relationship and there may be some "pack" element that derives from that but "play" IMO doesn't necessarily go to "pack". To me, "pack" behaviour relates more to the interactions between dogs (and people) who have an established relationship and would include things such as rallying around the owner; leader-follower behaviour.

Hmmm, I don't know about that - perhaps dogs differ, but I don't think my girl would be interested in playing with a dog she had no relationship at all with. Whenever she meets another dog, the first few seconds (or minutes) are spent meeting each other and assessing relative rank. Play only happens after that. She doesn't just see another dog, and launch straight into play mode. There is always some establishment of relationship and hierachy first, even if the dogs aren't in a permanent relationship.

I don't have the answers, just the questions!

But to move on, what rewards would you include as "pack" rewards then, if (non-toy) play isn't one of them? Just praise, and petting?

[Kavik]

Staranais - you have some good questions!

I think there is an element of pack drive in play drive rewards.

[Quickasyoucan]

Staranais - you have some good questions!

I think there is an element of pack drive in play drive rewards.

Yeah but I wonder if there can also be an element of prey drive too.

Isn't play in animals (including ourselves) a sort of practice for the real world be it learning how to hunt successfully or learning about social hierarchies?

If I were thinking about it theoretically (given that I only have one dog and so have very very limited experience) I could see it as a softer form with both prey and pack elements, but I guess everyone's view is going to differ slightly on that.

[Erny]

Hmmm, I don't know about that - perhaps dogs differ, but I don't think my girl would be interested in playing with a dog she had no relationship at all with. Whenever she meets another dog, the first few seconds (or minutes) are spent meeting each other and assessing relative rank. Play only happens after that. She doesn't just see another dog, and launch straight into play mode. There is always some establishment of relationship and hierachy first, even if the dogs aren't in a permanent relationship.

I don't have the answers, just the questions!

LOL .... that's ok - I always have questions, even after I might have posed the answers!!

But with reference to the above, do you think that just because two dogs meet and greet that a "pack" relationship has been formed? I don't.

But to move on, what rewards would you include as "pack" rewards then, if (non-toy) play isn't one of them? Just praise, and petting?

Generally speaking, acceptance as a member of the pack is a pack reward. Social activities would comprise a part of that. So no, not "just" praise; petting.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Isn't play in animals (including ourselves) a sort of practice for the real world be it learning how to hunt successfully or learning about social hierarchies?

Yes it is. It is also useful as an activity during which each dog establishes/tests the ranking of another - there is a lot of communication given (and taken) during play behaviour, IMO. And of course I expect that it is also just plain fun .

Edited March 4, 2010 by Erny