Staranais Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 (edited) But with reference to the above, do you think that just because two dogs meet and greet that a "pack" relationship has been formed? I don't. Well, it's hard to say - since really, the only opinions that matter would be the dogs' opinions, and it's kind of hard to ask them if they think they're in a pack or not. I can understand that it's hard to view such a temporary relationship as a "pack". But on the other hand I do know some trainers who can work a dog in pack drive within moments of meeting them. So I suppose it's not impossible that the dogs could view themselves as a pack, even though they'd just met. But whether or not it's a pack, I do think they've formed a social group. So perhaps I should talk about "social group" drive instead of pack drive! The desire to be part of a social group. I guess on the whole though I'm inclined to agree with Quickasyoucan. I think play is a pack drive thing, with elements of prey drive included (chasing and running). But it's really interesting to hear other people's thoughts. Edited March 4, 2010 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 In temperament testing, is prey drive not tested, and if so how? (not taking into account breed traits) You would test for prey drive by bringing the dog into the area where the 'prey' is, and look for various things. The dog's stance, its eyes, its ears, its tail, its movement, its tenseness, will all tell you if the dog is in prey drive or not. An inability to easily distract the dog from the prey can indicate a strong prey drive. Some dogs may 'shut down' during the test if they are weak-nerved. These dogs may show prey drive when in an environment they feel comfortable with. The test is just an indication, it isn't foolproof. But it is much better than not testing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 But then, dogs who are not of the same family play with other dogs - so where's the "pack" drive in that? Sure, during play they would be establishing a relationship and there may be some "pack" element that derives from that but "play" IMO doesn't necessarily go to "pack". I think that it's worthwhile separating pack drive from social play. I also think it's worthwhile to separate social play from predatory rehearsal, and I think it's worthwhile to separate predatory rehearsal from true prey drive. The reason why I think it's worthwhile is because I think details are worthwhile. I'm a minimalist at heart and I love to smooth all the details out to get to the core of the matter, but you don't leave them out. Success is always in the details. The finer the detail, the better your understanding. From a training perspective it makes sense to define the drive by the reward for the sake of simplicity and clarity, whether its accurate or not. Never thought I'd say that! I don't know how other people define drives, but I always fall back on body language. If there are common patterns in the body language, I'd define it as a separate drive, which is why I think chasing toys is play drive rather than prey drive. And why I think social play and predatory rehearsal are both still play drive, even if the rewards are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Staranais - you have some good questions!I think there is an element of pack drive in play drive rewards. Yeah but I wonder if there can also be an element of prey drive too. Isn't play in animals (including ourselves) a sort of practice for the real world be it learning how to hunt successfully or learning about social hierarchies? If I were thinking about it theoretically (given that I only have one dog and so have very very limited experience) I could see it as a softer form with both prey and pack elements, but I guess everyone's view is going to differ slightly on that. My opinion tends to fire up personal differences and I'm loathe to disrupt the discussion when it's going so well, but here it is anyway... I think there are a lot of grey areas and odd little transitions. There's a point in tug and chase games with Erik where the reward switches from biting and tugging the toy to taking it away and ripping bits off it. It's subtle, but marked. I think I've got a video of it somewhere. The social aspect drops right out of it at this point. It's been suggested I pace my training to use it as a jackpot or an end behaviour reward, but I'm a bit wary about using anti-social rewards. I am dubious that it's smart at all and don't think I have the skill for it if it is usable. When it comes to drawing a line, I think it's a case of averages. My dogs go especially nuts for tug toys that have sheepskin or furry bits on them. It pushes their buttons, but I don't think that means they are in prey drive. They know a woolly toy is still a toy, not an animal, but woolly toys are more exciting to play with than non-woolly toys. I think of it as an influence rather than a defining factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I don't know how other people define drives, but I always fall back on body language. If there are common patterns in the body language, I'd define it as a separate drive, which is why I think chasing toys is play drive rather than prey drive. And why I think social play and predatory rehearsal are both still play drive, even if the rewards are different. What difference in body language (in your experience) can you see in dogs training in food drive vs dogs training in what you define as play drive vs dogs working in what you define as prey drive? Others here have defined the basics of prey drive as the dog's instinct to catch and grab prey, what is your basic definition? Does the dog have to be chasing after a live prey item to be in (what you define as) prey drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 What difference in body language (in your experience) can you see in dogs training in food drive vs dogs training in what you define as play drive vs dogs working in what you define as prey drive? The problem with using body language in training scenarios to define anything is, IMO, that you've introduced a whole new factor that is quite powerful, that being giving your dog the anticipation that they will be able to earn a reward. The conditioning involved in that is really strong. I'm sure we've all seen our dogs get excited when we pick up a clicker or a ball or get some treats out of the freezer. To me, that's just anticipation for imminent rewards in general. Most dogs I have seen "training in drive" are in a general anticipatory state and the differences are in the reward delivery stage. There's not much chance to see this with food as it's gone in an instant. I couldn't say with play versus prey drive as I'm yet to see anyone working their dog in prey drive. I know someone who does (using the term the same way I do) and they keep promising to show me videos, but haven't yet. I can't wait to see it. Everyone tells me the dog is unlike any they have ever seen before. Others here have defined the basics of prey drive as the dog's instinct to catch and grab prey, what is your basic definition? Does the dog have to be chasing after a live prey item to be in (what you define as) prey drive? My basic definition is exactly as the term states. Drive for prey. Not chasing, not pouncing, not stalking, not tugging, but for actual prey animals. Live prey animals. How they might go for the prey is variable, but not the soaring arousal levels at the very sight or smell of a prey animal. Dogs that instinctively know a prey animal when they see one. A dead animal is not prey; it's carrion. Food all the same, but completely different response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Who in their right mind would train a dog in YOUR definition of prey drive??? I guess I could - gimme some bunnies to chase and catch Divani will be a superstar! You might find that the term - training in prey drive - is used "globaly" and defined as a dogs desire to chase and catch fast moving OBJECTS, not live animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Monelite's global definition plus- producing the same chemical rewards in the dog as chasing live prey. I have never heard anyone define prey drive as you have Corvus. What drive do you think herding dogs are in? If the result for the dog chemically and physiologically is the same- how can you argue that the dog is in a different drive? I still think level of prey drive, what is considered a prey object and threshold to prey drive are concepts that would answer all your questions corvus, rather than breaking down the drive into different ones because of differences in the above 3 things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I don't think you would be allowed to train in prey drive if it required the use of live prey Stalk-chase-catch-shake-kill-carry-eat = prey drive. Different breeds have different amounts of the various stages. I think it was Ray Coppinger's book that explained this well? Can't remember - was definitely in a book somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Others here have defined the basics of prey drive as the dog's instinct to catch and grab prey, what is your basic definition? Does the dog have to be chasing after a live prey item to be in (what you define as) prey drive? My basic definition is exactly as the term states. Drive for prey. Not chasing, not pouncing, not stalking, not tugging, but for actual prey animals. Live prey animals. How they might go for the prey is variable, but not the soaring arousal levels at the very sight or smell of a prey animal. Dogs that instinctively know a prey animal when they see one. A dead animal is not prey; it's carrion. Food all the same, but completely different response. Then I guess it's impossible to train anything except a hunting dog in prey drive? Perhaps that's why people run into difficulty discussing prey drive with you, Corvus - because you appear to be using a very different, much more restrictive definition of "prey drive" than anyone else on the forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 you appear to be using a very different, much more restrictive definition of "prey drive" than anyone else on the forum? You mean countless number of forums around the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Corvus, why don't you just swallow your ego and book a lesson with K9. It would be nice to be able to read a training thread and learn more about the topic than what you think based on your dogs and a hare. I have more experience in animal behaviour than you do but I am happy to admit that when it comes to dog training these guys are far superior to me in their knowledge. Maybe open your mind and consider the possibility you are wrong sometimes and learn a little, and we all might get something out of these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I don't think you would be allowed to train in prey drive if it required the use of live prey Stalk-chase-catch-shake-kill-carry-eat = prey drive. Different breeds have different amounts of the various stages. I think it was Ray Coppinger's book that explained this well? Can't remember - was definitely in a book somewhere. I am pretty sure it was the Ray Coppinger dog's book as I remember him talking about modified prey drive behaviours in herding animals and livestock guardians and such terms as eye stalk which stuck in my mind for some reason I seem to remember his argument about how different parts of the predatory sequence had been modified in different breeds such that some parts were exaggerated, some were non-existent depending on what the breed was used for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Corvus, why don't you just swallow your ego and book a lesson with K9. It would be nice to be able to read a training thread and learn more about the topic than what you think based on your dogs and a hare. I have more experience in animal behaviour than you do but I am happy to admit that when it comes to dog training these guys are far superior to me in their knowledge. Maybe open your mind and consider the possibility you are wrong sometimes and learn a little, and we all might get something out of these threads. You know though, and this is totally off topic and exactely what we tell corvus off for, I'd love to hear a bit about primates. Do they have prey drive ?? I always think they are really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Yeah I was pretty sure that was the book Quickasyoucan - I remember that argument too. "Eye" in herding dogs being part of the stalk part of the sequence that had been exaggerated in herding dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 corvus that invitation that I extended for you to come and watch a training session at the Waratah Club still stands. I remember you saying there are no good trainers in Sydney, I dare say you just havent met any yet and there are few on this site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Some primates have hunting behaviours that could be compared to prey drive in dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Then I guess it's impossible to train anything except a hunting dog in prey drive? Forgot about them maybe greyhounds to lure should be added to it? potentially LGB's as well? herding? or were we taling about teaching dog some obedience by doing training in drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Some primates have hunting behaviours that could be compared to prey drive in dogs. I have to admit to being a bit of an animal planet freak and do remember some particularly vicious (well from my point of view) hunting footage of primates but I can't remember whether it was chimps or baboons, just that it was really really bloody and I think involved hunting other monkeys. I suppose we humans have modified prey drive anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 (edited) Some primates have hunting behaviours that could be compared to prey drive in dogs. I have to admit to being a bit of an animal planet freak and do remember some particularly vicious (well from my point of view) hunting footage of primates but I can't remember whether it was chimps or baboons, just that it was really really bloody and I think involved hunting other monkeys. I suppose we humans have modified prey drive anyway. Ball games? Hockey, Soccer, Football, Basketball, Netball etc EFS Edited March 5, 2010 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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