Dna Clear By Parentage

[shortstep]

Regarding ANKC.

For some breeds DNA disease tests will be required for registration of the litter after the 1st of the year. Has anyone heard how we will be documenting our DNA disease tested dogs after the first of the year?

My real question is how will Clear by Parentage be brought forward over the generations on the pedigrees?

For example in the coming years, if I buy a pup and 2-3 generations ago all the DNA disease testing was done, and the great grand parents were all DNA clear, how do I prove/show and carry forward that my pup is clear by parentage? Will this be brought forward on the reg papers each generation, so that the information never gets lost no matter how many generations have passed since the tests were done?

Regarding MDBA Registry

Steve, do you have input yet for this topic on how MDBA will handle this issue of documentation of DNA disease Clear by Parentage?

[*Lolapalooza*]

Parents are certified clear you can send in their details to the DNA people to get puppies clear by parentage.

but clear by parentage bred to clear by parentage puppies must be re tested.

ie Boris (DNA clear) bred to Daisy (Dna clear)= puppy Doris can be certified CBP without swabbing.

If Doris is bred to a male who is also CBP or even DNA clear (I think) the resultant pups must be swabbed and certified DNA clear.

as far as I gather for my breed with vWD anyway.

[shortstep]

Parents are certified clear you can send in their details to the DNA people to get puppies clear by parentage.

but clear by parentage bred to clear by parentage puppies must be re tested.

ie Boris (DNA clear) bred to Daisy (Dna clear)= puppy Doris can be certified CBP without swabbing.

If Doris is bred to a male who is also CBP or even DNA clear (I think) the resultant pups must be swabbed and certified DNA clear.

as far as I gather for my breed with vWD anyway.

I had heard that this was going to be the case. So we can look forward to years and years of paying for DNA tests on dogs we know are normal. Bet the labs in Australia are jumping for joy!!

So is the ANKC doing anything on the pedigrees fopr us at all, or just making sure we hand them the test results and we are on our own to figure out how to pay for all this testing over and over again?

[Sandra777]

Certain labs are refusing to issue clear by parentage certificates but some labs do so shop around. Pups would need to be DNA profiled to prove the two parents listed are the parents.

[shortstep]

Certain labs are refusing to issue clear by parentage certificates but some labs do so shop around. Pups would need to be DNA profiled to prove the two parents listed are the parents.

I already started doing doing DNA profiling with my last litter. (and last litter might be the answer too)

But haveing to do all the DNA work all over again every other generation is just too much, 3 tests on my bred. It is just too much of an ask, when it is being done for no good reason.

Especially when the ANKC could keep the records and all we would need to do is profile the parents to prove they are who they should be.

I guess everyone else must have a lot more money than I do.

Steve I do hope that MDBA is going to serve it's custormers with a bit more concern and service???

Edited December 17, 2010 by shortstep

[Talisker]

To have a clear by parentage certificate issued the puppies must be DNA profiled to prove they are actually the offspring of the parents tested. THey still need to be swabbed, but the DNA profile is significantly cheaper than most tests

[shortstep]

To have a clear by parentage certificate issued the puppies must be DNA profiled to prove they are actually the offspring of the parents tested. THey still need to be swabbed, but the DNA profile is significantly cheaper than most tests

Yes but then their pups will need to be tested again, even if they are the result of 2 Clear by Parentage parents. Get it? We have to keep testing every other generation, profiling or not.

[Silverblue]

To have a clear by parentage certificate issued the puppies must be DNA profiled to prove they are actually the offspring of the parents tested. THey still need to be swabbed, but the DNA profile is significantly cheaper than most tests

And so they should be, as in my case where it was proven the sire registered on the pedigree was not infact the actual sire !!!!!!

It is suprising just how often this occurs.

[shortstep]

To have a clear by parentage certificate issued the puppies must be DNA profiled to prove they are actually the offspring of the parents tested. THey still need to be swabbed, but the DNA profile is significantly cheaper than most tests

And so they should be, as in my case where it was proven the sire registered on the pedigree was not infact the actual sire !!!!!!

It is suprising just how often this occurs.

I did not read anybody saying we should not be doing profiling, as I said I have already started to doing it.

However this does not change the fact that we will all now have to repeat DNA disease tests ( 3 DNA tests in my case) on 2 dogs every other generation, (not to mention hips and elbows every generation), when the ANKC could keep records and help out the breeders so we do not have to keep testing and waisting money on something we already know.

But like I said you guys must have a lot more money then I have.

So how many DNA test do you have to do on your breed?

[Silverblue]

We do 2 DNA tests in our breed.

I have said for many years, before this happened, How many generations would you go before retesting??, there are many different factors that can arise which is what I was trying to get at in my first post.

For my own peace of mind I would & do still test each generation.

[shortstep]

We do 2 DNA tests in our breed.

I have said for many years, before this happened, How many generations would you go before retesting??, there are many different factors that can arise which is what I was trying to get at in my first post.

For my own peace of mind I would & do still test each generation.

Well I only breed my own dogs and I trust myself and the lab samples I and my vet send in. The dogs are profiled and microchiped. That is enough.

I have to do on each parent, 3 DNA tests, profiling, Hips, Elbows, shoulders, Eye cert pups and parents, that is enough.

The least the ANKC can do if they are require these tests to register a litter, is to keep the records of clear by parentage so we (their paying customers) do not have to keep retesting just so we can hand them a certificate which the previous DNA tests makes redundent.

BTW what ever happened to trust, like you sign a statement in front of a notery saying the dog is clear by parentage and write down the parents test numbers or grand parent test numbers on some form. I know all ANKC breeders should be treated like criminals until proven other wise, but this really is a bit too much.

So are they doing retesting every other generation in Northern Europe (the model of political correctness in dog breeding)? When I looked at my breed last they did not even reguire one DNA test, never mind retesting DNA clear by parentage dogs, they accepted a clear eye exams and did nothing about the other 2 DNA tests.

Are they doing it in the UK this way?

Are there any countries requiring repeated DNA tests on Clear by Parentage dogs?

Or is it only us doing it this way?

Edited December 17, 2010 by shortstep

[Silverblue]

I do agree with what you are saying in regards to breeding your own dogs, but unfortunately sometimes we have to go "outside" our own dogs & this I believe is where the problems can arise.

[Talisker]

We do 2 DNA tests in our breed.

I have said for many years, before this happened, How many generations would you go before retesting??, there are many different factors that can arise which is what I was trying to get at in my first post.

For my own peace of mind I would & do still test each generation.

Well I only breed my own dogs and I trust myself and the lab samples I and my vet send in. The dogs are profiled and microchiped. That is enough.

I have to do on each parent, 3 DNA tests, profiling, Hips, Elbows, shoulders, Eye cert pups and parents, that is enough.

The least the ANKC can do if they are require these tests to register a litter, is to keep the records of clear by parentage so we (their paying customers) do not have to keep retesting just so we can hand them a certificate which the previous DNA tests makes redundent.

BTW what ever happened to trust, like you sign a statement in front of a notery saying the dog is clear by parentage and write down the parents test numbers or grand parent test numbers on some form. I know all ANKC breeders should be treated like criminals until proven other wise, but this really is a bit too much.

So are they doing retesting every other generation in Northern Europe (the model of political correctness in dog breeding)? When I looked at my breed last they did not even reguire one DNA test, never mind retesting DNA clear by parentage dogs, they accepted a clear eye exams and did nothing about the other 2 DNA tests.

Are they doing it in the UK this way?

Are there any countries requiring repeated DNA tests on Clear by Parentage dogs?

Or is it only us doing it this way?

Shortstep - I think you are missing Silverblue's point. The DNA swab for offspring to confirm Clear by Parentage is a DNA profile - not a test. It is to prove that the dog is actually a result of the claimed mating - verifying clear by parentage.

In my breed we have to do hips and elbows. We are also supposed to do vWD - (most bernese breeders don't!)I have done all of mine, and only use outside males that have been tested and are clear. That way I can profile any offspring that may be used for breeding to verify that they are Clear by Parentage.

CBP DNA profile is $70

This is cheaper than testing the puppies for vWD which is $125. If you had to test for PRA or CEA at $200 you'd be saving a significant amount by DNA profiling to confirm parentage.

The only way the ANKC could keep the records and verify CBP is if all puppies were microchipped and DNA profiled prior to registration.

Trust - pffft what's that in the dog world?? I want to see copies of all health tests before I use a male - and I expect to provide the same in return. The ANKC can't certify that a pup is clear without proof of it's parentage.

[shortstep]

I do agree with what you are saying in regards to breeding your own dogs, but unfortunately sometimes we have to go "outside" our own dogs & this I believe is where the problems can arise.

Well if that is the attitude we take with all things in dog breeding it will be the end of it.

The whole purpose and proper use of this technology is the benefit of not having to keep doing the same DNA disease tests over and over again, once you clear your lines of the disease. We have to use common sense.

Besides, we can not go around not trusting anybody to do the right thing or to tell the truth. There is a limit to what is possible, and spending thousands repeating tests that you already have done by DNA so there is no guessing and you know the answer, is far above and beyond the call of duty.

There is nothing noble about being wasteful with money. If we want to give our money away, at least give it to a charity where it will do some good, instead of making some laboratory rich for no good reason.

Edited December 17, 2010 by shortstep

[shortstep]

We do 2 DNA tests in our breed.

I have said for many years, before this happened, How many generations would you go before retesting??, there are many different factors that can arise which is what I was trying to get at in my first post.

For my own peace of mind I would & do still test each generation.

Well I only breed my own dogs and I trust myself and the lab samples I and my vet send in. The dogs are profiled and microchiped. That is enough.

I have to do on each parent, 3 DNA tests, profiling, Hips, Elbows, shoulders, Eye cert pups and parents, that is enough.

The least the ANKC can do if they are require these tests to register a litter, is to keep the records of clear by parentage so we (their paying customers) do not have to keep retesting just so we can hand them a certificate which the previous DNA tests makes redundent.

BTW what ever happened to trust, like you sign a statement in front of a notery saying the dog is clear by parentage and write down the parents test numbers or grand parent test numbers on some form. I know all ANKC breeders should be treated like criminals until proven other wise, but this really is a bit too much.

So are they doing retesting every other generation in Northern Europe (the model of political correctness in dog breeding)? When I looked at my breed last they did not even reguire one DNA test, never mind retesting DNA clear by parentage dogs, they accepted a clear eye exams and did nothing about the other 2 DNA tests.

Are they doing it in the UK this way?

Are there any countries requiring repeated DNA tests on Clear by Parentage dogs?

Or is it only us doing it this way?

Shortstep - I think you are missing Silverblue's point. The DNA swab for offspring to confirm Clear by Parentage is a DNA profile - not a test. It is to prove that the dog is actually a result of the claimed mating - verifying clear by parentage.

In my breed we have to do hips and elbows. We are also supposed to do vWD - (most bernese breeders don't!)I have done all of mine, and only use outside males that have been tested and are clear. That way I can profile any offspring that may be used for breeding to verify that they are Clear by Parentage.

CBP DNA profile is $70

This is cheaper than testing the puppies for vWD which is $125. If you had to test for PRA or CEA at $200 you'd be saving a significant amount by DNA profiling to confirm parentage.

The only way the ANKC could keep the records and verify CBP is if all puppies were microchipped and DNA profiled prior to registration.

Trust - pffft what's that in the dog world?? I want to see copies of all health tests before I use a male - and I expect to provide the same in return. The ANKC can't certify that a pup is clear without proof of it's parentage.

No that is not what was said above. they said you could only use clear by parentage for one generation (yes yes yes we are all doing profiles but that is not what I am talking about a profile does not look for the DNA test it only says who the parents are).

Ok lets follow it through.

Dog A DNA profiled and DNA clear of disease X.

Dog B DNA profiled and DNA clear of disease X.

Resulting pup C, DNA profiled and Clear by parentage for disease X.

Next litter

Pup C above, Clear by parentage for disease X and profiled.

Dog D DNA profiled and DNA clear of disease X.

Resulting pup E, Profiled and not considered DNA clear by parentage. (Because it came from a clear by parentage parent)

Now I go to bred Pup E, must retest by DNA for disease X and profile.

Right?

Every other generation we have to retest, even if we are only breeding DNA clear dogs, another words we have cleared our lines and only breed our lines, but we still have to keep DNA testing every other generation.

Am I wrong??

Edited December 17, 2010 by shortstep

[dancinbcs]

The ANKC do not require profiling to prove parentage for any dog as the registration application is a legal document. If there is a discepancy they can order profiling be done but otherwise they take the breeders legal signature as proof of parentage for any dog. This will still apply when DNA testing is introduced.

Any progeny of clear/normal parents will be clear/normal by pedigree and DNA profiling is not required. They are still working on putting the results on the pedigrees but have not been back to us yet to advise exactly how they plan to do this for Border Collies. We are the first breed to have compulsory DNA testing so are the guinea pigs as the ANKC work out the best way around all this. The regulations for Border Collies actually state that profiling will not be required.

Most of us know exactly who the parents of our dogs are and therefore should not have to pay a lab to prove it. Anyone buying in new stock would be wise to have them tested, for your own peace of mind, if you have any suspicion that there may have been an error at some point in the pedigree behind that dog. Otherwise there will be no need to test dogs that are descended from all clear/normal ancestors.

[Steve]

To have a clear by parentage certificate issued the puppies must be DNA profiled to prove they are actually the offspring of the parents tested. THey still need to be swabbed, but the DNA profile is significantly cheaper than most tests

And so they should be, as in my case where it was proven the sire registered on the pedigree was not infact the actual sire !!!!!!

It is suprising just how often this occurs.

Shhhhhh You'll get in trouble if you say that.

We will be accepting clear by parentage because all parents have to be profiled before they can register the litter and our system will put it forward. If anyone falsifys a pedigree we will have them charged with fraud.

[shortstep]

The ANKC do not require profiling to prove parentage for any dog as the registration application is a legal document. If there is a discepancy they can order profiling be done but otherwise they take the breeders legal signature as proof of parentage for any dog. This will still apply when DNA testing is introduced.

Any progeny of clear/normal parents will be clear/normal by pedigree and DNA profiling is not required. They are still working on putting the results on the pedigrees but have not been back to us yet to advise exactly how they plan to do this for Border Collies. We are the first breed to have compulsory DNA testing so are the guinea pigs as the ANKC work out the best way around all this. The regulations for Border Collies actually state that profiling will not be required.

Most of us know exactly who the parents of our dogs are and therefore should not have to pay a lab to prove it. Anyone buying in new stock would be wise to have them tested, for your own peace of mind, if you have any suspicion that there may have been an error at some point in the pedigree behind that dog. Otherwise there will be no need to test dogs that are descended from all clear/normal ancestors.

Thanks! At least there is still some hope then.

Though I also did also hear that they were only going to accept lab results and the the labs woudl only give one generation Clear by Parentage, as the other posted said.

Isn't this supose to start 1 Jan11 ? when are they going to let people know what they need to do?

Edited December 17, 2010 by shortstep

[zenchel]

However this does not change the fact that we will all now have to repeat DNA disease tests ( 3 DNA tests in my case) on 2 dogs every other generation, (not to mention hips and elbows every generation), when the ANKC could keep records and help out the breeders so we do not have to keep testing and waisting money on something we already know.

But like I said you guys must have a lot more money then I have.

This is a really important topic and there are several facets to it. This whole DNA testing thing is a brave new world, which in a way has gotten away from us and I'm not sure whether we will ever be able to catch up with it and get it back under our control. As soon as we think we may have it under control, the goal posts get shifted or the technology changes or one of the testing companies goes feral and we're back to square one

Firstly, the ANKC Conference in October passed a set of Protocols for the use of DNA disease testing:

ANKC Regulations

Part 6 The Register and Registration

ANKC Protocols for DNA-based Disease Testing (Added 10/10, 6.7.1)

The DNA Program

2.10 The program focuses on DNA testing to determine genetic status of breeding stock.

It is vital that ANKC confirms effective protocols to ensure that:

a) There is scientific validity and accuracy in test results:

the test must be published and/or peer reviewed;

there must be no room for fraud on the part of owners;

there must be no room for unknown/accidental matings.

b) Breed councils and clubs are aware of the requirements should they wish to

introduce Litter Registration Limitations.

The Protocols

2.11 DNA collection

DNA collection is by approved, independent, trained collectors, including

veterinarians. Owners/breeders cannot collect from their own dogs.

Approved collectors would be those accepted by State CC’s or nominated by breed

clubs.

2.12 Positive identification

Identification of the dog by microchip or unique (as part of a recognised Australia

wide based tattoo system) tattoo is required, it must be verified by the collector at the

time of DNA collection and recorded on the form.

2.13 Collection method

DNA sample collection is via non-intrusive buccal swab, or blood collection.

Blood samples if required, should be collected by a registered veterinarian.

2.14 Parentage testing

For verification of parentage, both parents and the offspring concerned must have

DNA profiles.

2.15 Clear by parentage (CBP) for a Specific Disease

Where both parents are clear for a specific disease-causing gene, their offspring may

be assumed to be clear of that disease. Where specific LRLs are in place, those

offspring that go on to become breeding stock, parentage must be confirmed either

by parentage test or disease test prior to breeding.

Where litter registration limitations in a breed require disease testing of breeding

stock, after a number of generations with no reported cases of the disease, the breed

council (or in the absence of a council, the majority of breed clubs) may declare the

Australian population of the breed to be clear of the disease. The litter registration

limitations may then be altered to require only imported animals, imported semen and

stored frozen semen to be tested.

[The number of generations would be decided in conference with the relevant breed

club(s) and the CHWC. Additional advice to be sought from geneticists/advisory

breed council.]

So, basically, the ANKC recognises Clear By Parentage for the purposes of Litter Registration Limitations, as long as the protocols are followed. That sounds really easy, however when you consider the Border Collie situation, things take a turn for the worse

The Border Collie community chose to introduce LRLs for three diseases, CL, CEA and TNS. These LRLs are supposed to take effect on Jan 1 2011. However they don't conform to the requirements of the ANKC DNA protocols. The TNS test has never been published or peer reviewed, so it can't be put in an LRL. That doesn't say that you can't keep using the test.

The LRLs that were agreed to also don't conform to the Clear By Parentage protocols. Parentage must be proven to claim Clear By Parentage. I know there are many BC people that have three or four generations of clear by parentage, however most, if not all, haven't done the profiling to prove parentage. Some have tested CL with Alan Wilton, some with GTG. Alan Wilton's markers for parentage don't match GTG's - it's a minefield!! And to really put the icing on the cake, GTG have now decided they won't do more than one generation Clear By Parentage !!!!!! Bloody hell.......

The Litter Registration Limitations that were voted on can't be put into practice on January 1st, 2011. The new company that's doing DNA testing, ASAP Laboratories, will do Clear By Parentage for as many generations as you like, however they can't do the CEA test, as GTG has the licence from Optigen. They will recognise results from other laboratories, which GTG won't!

I don't know what the answer to all of this is; as I said above I think we've lost control of DNA testing

If anybody has any real concerns about all of this, I'd be happy to talk to them about it.

Cheers,

Sylvia Power

Chair, Dogs Vic CHC

[Sandra777]

To have a clear by parentage certificate issued the puppies must be DNA profiled to prove they are actually the offspring of the parents tested. THey still need to be swabbed, but the DNA profile is significantly cheaper than most tests

Yes but then their pups will need to be tested again, even if they are the result of 2 Clear by Parentage parents. Get it? We have to keep testing every other generation, profiling or not.

Shortstep - as I said - CERTAIN labs are refusing to issue clear by parentage certificates based on DNA profiling. Some OTHER labs are still doing it. shop around!

ETA - obviously some tests are available from all labs, but if DNA profile by cheek swab you can send these overseas if need be. Research research research.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Sandra777