Predatory Drift

[all creatures]

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dtb888

Has anyone used this book /dvd at all and did you find it useful?

Thanks

Edited February 1, 2011 by all creatures

[Jigsaw]

Havent seen it but sounds interesting.

[all creatures]

While I was looking around for more info to help me understand my dogs with a strong prey drive - I came across this article which I found disturbing (just my feeling though..) I have never heard of this before either:

http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2...predatory-drift

It made me feel despair that this person stated there there was no control over Predatory Drift. I found it alarmist.

Then I found the source material (the book above) and it 'seems' a bit more rational, in it's introduction (but haven't seen the rest).

I have asked around (even my SBT's breeder) and no one seems to have heard of it - so I am now wondering if it's either too new - or it's not an accepted theory on dog behaviour?

I have also had a terrible predatory dog experience and from researching prey drives on this forum - I can see others have too (not saying mine was due to this and I don't know all the facts behind the dog involved either)

There is a very interesting thread on another forum about it:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t13898-11/

I have been thinking about it alot (and I am trying not to botch the topic here guys... ) and wondering if it's more a set of circumstances all coming togther with tragic consequences?

EG: the Owner of a high prey drive dog (HPDD) that doesn't understand it + Opportunity (ie the small dog in the unleashed dog park) + a HPDD/breed that is a known 'finisher" (kills rather than releases) + just plain scary Owners who actually encorouge their dogs prey drive maybe + a dog with previous aggression etc

There will be others with more experienced and/or qualifcations that could add to this.

Please don't shoot me down in flames :D - I am not saying I agree with this theory or not - just curious/interested.

There is perhaps no cure for human stupidity in some sad accidents I agree....but some accidents are genuine. And maybe accidents could be looked at as opportunities to learn and change also?

For example - as first time SBT (and also a HPDD) owners - the breeder didn't discuss the possibility of high prey drive - I am not blaming the breeder or breed for anything here - we should have done our homework better also. So the blame is really ours and I accept that. Would I have made a different breed choice - possibly. Would it help if a breeder discussed an issue like this with us, with a known first timer - I think so.

(Eg: my BC breeder discussed many possible problem traits with him and it was because of this I was alert and proactive in preventing car cashing etc...)

Just interested

[corvus]

It's an accepted theory as far as I know.

[all creatures]

It's an accepted theory as far as I know.

Oh. I haven't found it mentioned/discussed in the forum b4? Is it a controversial topic - or maybe inappropriate/too sepcialised for this Forum? If so - should it be removed maybe?

[Diva]

It's an accepted theory as far as I know, and I don't see why it shouldn't be discussed

I have only seen anything I would class as predatory drift once with one of my dogs over the years, and funnily enough never at all with the sighthounds.

The incidence where it was the only explanation that I could see that fitted was with a fairly placid working breed (the individual dog was placid, not the whole breed) playing with a smaller dog he didn't know very well.

He had excellent bite inhibition and a good conditioned recall, so no harm came of it, but the switch from play to prey behaviour was so sudden, stark and out of character for this dog that it made me look at the issue a bit more. He wasn't a dog who thought small dogs were prey, and for those dogs who do I don't think it's satisfactory to call it 'drift'.

Drift to me is the dog that normally thinks little dogs (or all other dogs) are OK and normally has good social skills with them, but then something happens in a social encounter that switches him into a prey sequence. It only happened once in this dog's entire life, and I never figured out what the trigger was in that instance.

But since seeing that happen predatory drift is the possibility that ensures I never leave my big dogs running unsupervised with much smaller dogs, even when they get on well.

[corvus]

I guess it's controversial because some people don't believe their dog could ever kill another dog, or because some folks think that dogs know what another dog is and wouldn't treat one like a prey animal. Personally, I think that there are a lot of variables to take into account and I do not believe that every dog is a potential dog killer. Some dogs don't seem to know how to kill things. Having said that, there are times when I have very quickly put my own dogs back on leash because they are getting over-excited during play and looking more serious than I am comfortable with. Do I think they would kill another dog? No - I they are not very accomplished hunters so far. We have one almost accidental mouse kill after hours and hours of hunting. However, I'm not taking chances. I sure as hell do not want my dogs to carry through and actually kill a sizeable animal. It seems far more sensible to me to assume they could do it than to blithely believe they wouldn't.

[Diva]

Some dogs don't seem to know how to kill things. Having said that, there are times when I have very quickly put my own dogs back on leash because they are getting over-excited during play and looking more serious than I am comfortable with.

The dog I mentioned didn't seem to know how to kill either, which was probably a good thing. But then I don't think that all dogs do complete the prey sequence when they are in drive, in some the chase is all, or they grab but don't shake, kill, dissect or eat. Even my rabbit catchers have often brought them back to me alive.

But it is significant that this wasn't a case of the dog getting overexcited and me having time to respond and put him back on leash. Even though I was watching very closely, this instance was too quick a switch for that. Something suddenly switched over in his mind, there was no build up to it that was observable and the play sequence leading up to it was relatively mild. I think maybe it was a sound that triggered him, a sound I didn't hear, but I will never know. No harm done, but I knew what I had seen all the same.

I should add, that was the one time I have really seen clear predatory drift in an otherwise very dog-safe dog in all the dogs I have owned or watched over many years. I don't think anyone needs to get paranoid over it, just sensible.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Diva

[SpotTheDog]

I think it's an interesting subject.

My dog will shake the hell out of anything he picks up, he's done it since 12 weeks, and I've often watched it and thought 'Jeez I hope he never does that to one of my cats'.

However, in interaction with my cats, he's all about the chase. On the rare occasions where one of them and him end up in the yard simultaneously, he'll chase and they'll run... but then they stop and turn around to face him, and he goes charging past, or backs up and harries instead, bouncing about and barking. He also seems to get enormous enjoyment out of them then giving chase to him.

It's a worry to me at the moment, but that's because Gus is nine months old today and appears to have embraced his teenaged months with great gusto this week and is being, to use a technical term, a right bollox.

[megan_]

my mini schnauzer knows how to kill a rat in a few seconds - she has done this twice. She doesn't shake her toys.

My boy shakes his toys, kills his tug etc, but has never killed a rat? I don't think he'd know what to do with one if he caught it.

[Diva]

'Predatory drift' as I know the term is a pretty specific concept. As per one of the OP's links, it's a sudden, and drastic change in a dog's demeanor that is characterized by behaviors associated with hunting small prey.....most often used to describe a medium to large dog who has suddenly and uncharacteristically targeted a smaller dog as prey .

I guess it's inevitable that this thread will just become about prey drive in all it's manifestations.

But I think the interesting thing about predatory drift is that it does occur uncharacteristically. It's not just the high-drive dogs you see it in.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Diva

[megan_]

oops. ....I realised after I posted (in response to someone else) that I hadn't read the link. My bad

[Kirty]

As the owner of a sighthound, it is something that concerns me. My girl lives with 7+ cats and I trust her completely with them but I am planning to take her to Kepala one day and when I do, she will be muzzled. I do not think she is aggressive at all but I think that perhaps in the heat of the moment, a small fluffy dog racing around could trigger an instinctive response. Its not worth the risk IMO. I have seen small dogs being targeted by large dogs in off lead areas and it makes me very anxious.

[all creatures]

I find it really interesting too - two of the links discuss breeds and their motor patterns - and their connection with predatory drift and potentially higher risks.

I have a SBT and after much recent reading, observing, referring to her breeder etc etc - I am much more comfortable/confident in my HPDrive girl (just to keep it short and sweet there).

But just to take a huge leap here, if it's Ok - someone I know has recently started pedigree Blue SBT's (with no prior dog breeding experience, showing etc etc) and although I dont' agree with it myself (as it's about profit also) - after all my research here - I can see how easily a breed can get such a unfairly tarnished reputation and possibly preventable accidents can happen (many here probably know this story all to well already...)

But - his stud female has known aggression towards other dogs. I don't breed but I can appreciate this might not be a good thing in his stud bitch?

I am thinking that he would be very wise to discuss his dam's traits (in light of HPD) with his potential clients?

In an ideal world his clients would have done their homework well enough to ask the "right" questions etc. But does he also have an ethical/moral responsibilty towards his clients - in order that they can make informed choices for themselves, family, lifestyle etc?

Anyway - apart from his ethical responsibilties etc - I now wonder how accountable he could be held in his duty of care and skill - if one of his offspring pups is involved in a bad incident and he has not disclosed the information about his stud girl? (another big leap in the topic there I guess...)

I have no idea about legislation, etc etc - but we do live a litigous society. Many variables with PD as Corvus mentioned and I am not wanting to imply anything or upset anyone - as it can be an emotive topic for many also. (I will have a chat and find out more, with my friend also I owe that much to our lovely canine buddies)

I am just wondering if it might be food for thought for the wrong kind of breeders of HPD breeds? Maybe it could help make positive changes...(but that's another huge leap perhaps.... ???

Edited February 1, 2011 by all creatures

[corvus]

Anyway - apart from his ethical responsibilties etc - I now wonder how accountable he could be held (as a backyard breeder) in his duty of care and skill - if one of his offspring pups is involved in a bad incident and he has not disclosed the information about his stud girl? (another big leap in the topic there I guess...)

Ha. If your friend could be held accountable than the registered breeder that bred my mother's dog that is riddled with health problems and doesn't even approach the breed standard could be held accountable for his permanent and ongoing reduction in quality of life. I wish.

[all creatures]

Anyway - apart from his ethical responsibilties etc - I now wonder how accountable he could be held (as a backyard breeder) in his duty of care and skill - if one of his offspring pups is involved in a bad incident and he has not disclosed the information about his stud girl? (another big leap in the topic there I guess...)

Ha. If your friend could be held accountable than the registered breeder that bred my mother's dog that is riddled with health problems and doesn't even approach the breed standard could be held accountable for his permanent and ongoing reduction in quality of life. I wish.

(Just a quick slide off topic...sorry)

Sorry, my mistake OH says they are registered in fact. My friend is not the type of person to do deliberate wrong by anyone in anyway - and maybe there is more to the Dam's issues than I am aware of (as I know nothing about breeding..) I should say that - as my friend may ending up reading this one day! ;)

But yes - there are some real issues aren't there. Bit of a mess really. I, for one, am so grateful that I have had the reaped the benefits of good breeding, with my own dogs over the years.

[Greytmate]

I know a lot about prey drive in dogs, and have tested many dogs for prey drive towards other animals and dogs.

I don't know about drift, but I think that many people have no idea what prey drive looks like, what might trigger it, and so are surprised when their dog acts out of prey drive.

Is the prey drive suddenly switched on, or is it that there was never the right trigger before?

Just because a dog is wagging his tail and standing still quietly doesn't mean he is being a good boy.

Anyone using an aggressive stafford bitch for breeding family pets is unethical, whether the aggression is predatory or other.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog spends a lot of time hunting mice in the backyard. She wags her tail and stares intently at a spot in the grass, and then pounces. She's actually managed to catch one, but she didn't kill it, she just released it unharmed (apart from shock) in the middle of the lawn, and when it recovered itself and tried to run for cover, she caught it again and put it back in the middle of the lawn.

She won't play with or eat the dead mice either.

She has herded a rabbit until it wouldn't run anymore and she still didn't touch it. And she loves chasing cats. And seagulls. I have persuaded her to "leave it" with the cats. I wouldn't entirely trust her off lead with one but she has occasionally been face to face with a cat that won't or can't run, and same as with the rabbit, she didn't touch it.

So I would say she definitely has prey drive, but seems to be lacking the kill shot, and I'm ok with that. As she matures, that may change, so I definitely like to supervise.

I've seen some dogs go from happily playing to frightened with certain other dogs that "play too rough". And that seems to get the rough dogs even more excited. You definitely need a classically conditioned recall - the sort that will stop a dog from chasing bunnies in this situation.

Steve at K9pro teaches "training in drive" and chasing things and tug is one of the ways to trigger and build drive with certain dogs. The trick is keeping it at a manageable level not out of control.

[Diva]

But - his stud female has known aggression towards other dogs.

Most aggression to other dogs I've seen isn't prey drive, it has other triggers entirely. And most high prey drive dogs I've met aren't dog aggressive.

[all creatures]

Steve at K9pro teaches "training in drive" and chasing things and tug is one of the ways to trigger and build drive with certain dogs. The trick is keeping it at a manageable level not out of control.

That's a really interesting comment!- as we do play the stalking/chasey game with SBT. Is perhaps not an ideal game to play if you want to not increase drive?

I found it really interesting to watch some of the U-tube movies of different dogs (breeds and sizes) at play (they have some silly titles like labrador/doberman attack and such..) If I can find them again I might post the links as there was some interesting stuff going on in them (to me anyway..) It would be great to see what the professionals like Steve and Greytmate see/think might be going on in these clips perhaps?