Loungefly Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Hi all, I'm just wanting to get some feedback about an issue with our 1 1/2 year old dog Mia and hopefully find out the best way to train her to overcome it. Basically we'd like her to get to the point where she can be off lead out of the yard without running away. Apologies in advance for the length of this post. I tend to ramble in order to get a point across First off, before I say anything else, I'd like to clarify that when she is being taken for walks, she is always on a lead. We never take her for walks in neighborhoods or in streets unless she is on a lead. The only time we allow her to roam a bit off lead is when she is on designated "dogs allowed" areas of the beach. I'm not wanting to take this dog for walks down the street off lead. I'd never do that. A lot of idiots in my neighborhood do that and one of these days they will no doubt lose their dog to a passing car. When entering or leaving the house, you always have to tell her to stay and make her stand back a bit before you enter or leave (we usually keep the front door open with the screen door closed). When visitors come over you always have to tell Mia to step back a bit while the person is entering so there's no chance for her to get thruogh the door. When she can get out the front door, she immediately wants to bolt off and go exploring, and it's a major pain to get her back. She keeps running, stopping, sniffing, running some more etc. Eventually she'll come back to me after following her a bit. Or if I get the car and drive over to where she is and open the door, she will usually run and jump in the car with no drama. If I want to take her for a ride in the car (no garage, car is parked outside), I always have to put the lead on her and walk her to the car. It's not the end of the world I know, but it's an annoyance to have to do this, especially if she won't be getting out of the car at the destination (therefore not leading the lead except to get to the car from the house and then from the car back to the house once I return). She knows what "wanna go for a ride?" means (she loves car rides), but if I open the door and let her out without a lead and walk to the car, she will jog straight past the car and go down the street and tune out what I'm saying to her. At home inside or out in the backyard she is an extremely obedient dog. She has done well in obedience classes (then again that was 99% lead work). On the beach even when she is running around a fair distance from me, she will come back to me when I call her (and I reward her with a treat to reinforce the recall). Obviously in our neighborhood there is more danger so I don't want to give her the luxury of being allowed to be more than a couple of meters from me at all times if she doesn't have a lead on. She gets plenty of walks, lots of exercise so I don't think it's boredom. Once in a blue moon she might dig in the yard but it's very rare, and she hasn't ever tried to escape the backyard or jump the fence in order to explore the neighborhood. I just worry that in the event someone mistakenly forgets to close the side gate properly without us knowing, that she'll start wandering and (assuming we see her when she's leaving the yard) we'll have a hard time getting her to come back. All in all she is a wonderful dog. She's extremely smart, very friendly, wonderful personality, and loves people to death. This issue is really the only ongoing problem we've had with her. She's eager to learn and really likes the attention she's gets when you try and teach her things. I guess I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about breaking her of this behaviour. I feel like if I knew of the proper way to go about teaching her, she would be receptive to it, since she's been very easy to train in every other respect. I'd appreciate some feedback. Thanks ;) Edited February 1, 2011 by Loungefly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 What I did with Jazz when she was a puppy was heaps and heaps of hanging about outside on a long line so that being out the front was no big deal. I also (and this was done on leade for a long time) would when taking her out with me scatter food on the ground by the door for her to pick up while I locked up and again when I got home while I unlocked. Then I started putting less food and waiting for her to look up at me then dropping more. All of this encouraged her to just hang around the front door and not go anywhere as that is where she got heavily rewarded when outside. We have a beagle as well, she was my partners before we were together. And unfortunately she had a learnt pattern of not being allowed out the front and then when she managed to push out she had novice owners that paniced and ran chasing her and shouting and grabbing. So she is a dog that puts head down and BOLTS if she gets through a door. I have not done anywhere near the work I should on this (I am guilty of relying on 2 things - her arthritis that now stops her going far or fast and the fact she is a beagle and runs 20 steps then doubles back 10 to find the smell she raced past.) On the occassions she has snuck through I have resisted the urge to run or shout and taken a few seconds to go and get food. With food her recall is quite reliable as it is in most other circumstances - just doors due to her early history. When we moved in toigether I did lots and lots of long lead work with heaps of recalls for high value rewards. Usually I can walk quietly to 5m or so away from her and call and she will come back for food. Last time she got out I happened to be near the car and she got past my Dad who was visiting, she shot past me before I knew and I instinctively opened the door and asked her to go for a ride and she doubled back and jumped in. LOL. But the point of this rambling is I was determined with Jazz not to have this issue so made hanging about outside and being allowed out no big deal and the front door was particularly rewarding. It has worked well for me. My old girl Piper I did not do any of this with as we lived on acreage at the time and she has always been a dog that stays under foot. With your dog you could also do lots of wait/get backs at the door then invite through once you have gone through and reward next to you so that they learn to come out when invited. Good luck and I am sure others will have some great ideas ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The simple answer is to train a reliable recall. A dog that comes when its called won't run away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 NOT doing something is not a behaviour. What do you want he to do instead? Reward that to buggery. My 3 year old dog has been so heavily rewarded for checking in and hanging about that every couple of minutes when he's off leash he tends to swan back to us and fall in at someone's thigh hoping they will notice how good he's being and give him a treat. These skills can be taught, but to be really effective they have to be maintained. We carry treats all the time so we can maintain the behaviour we like. That includes awesome recall treats. Some days I have to get OH to take the dogs or the recall treats because it's the only way to get the dogs far enough away to practise a recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 What I did with Jazz when she was a puppy was heaps and heaps of hanging about outside on a long line so that being out the front was no big deal. I also (and this was done on leade for a long time) would when taking her out with me scatter food on the ground by the door for her to pick up while I locked up and again when I got home while I unlocked. Then I started putting less food and waiting for her to look up at me then dropping more. All of this encouraged her to just hang around the front door and not go anywhere as that is where she got heavily rewarded when outside. I love this idea Piper Think I will use this when I get another puppy one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chran Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 How do you train recall in obedience? It's exactly the same with longer leash. Vary the training locations - a dog that behaves in your yard can be a different dog on the beach - that's just how dogs are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 What I did with Jazz when she was a puppy was heaps and heaps of hanging about outside on a long line so that being out the front was no big deal. I also (and this was done on leade for a long time) would when taking her out with me scatter food on the ground by the door for her to pick up while I locked up and again when I got home while I unlocked. Then I started putting less food and waiting for her to look up at me then dropping more. All of this encouraged her to just hang around the front door and not go anywhere as that is where she got heavily rewarded when outside. I love this idea Piper Think I will use this when I get another puppy one day. Me too! Thats great! I think I might even try it now! I don't have a problem with Honey doing it generally, but good recall or not, I dont trust her not to bolt out our accidentally open front door if the little shit of a Maltese who lives next door happens to pass by! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I hope it works for you guys. Jazz is funny. She is 3 now, I still randomly throw something down but most the time she doesn't see it unless I point it out. But when I open the front door and she wonders out she rarely goes more than a metre from the door. The other thing I didn't mention was teaching a good wait at the door until released. All of them (even the evil beagle who will look for a gap and take it) will stay out of the way with a door held wide open if told to. Jessi the beagle actually walks backwards away from the door as soon as we tell her to wait as we open the door and the longer you hold it open the more she moves back. Doorway waiting behaviour was taught at a "low value door" (just the bathroom door initially - they are usually not in a rush to get in or out of there). I don't require a sit, stand or drop. Moving and change of position is allowed but not past the line of the door. So I start to open the door and if the dog goes to go through the door gets closed. Open, close, open close etc until they hang back a second then give a release word and allow them through. Once they get the hang of it you increasethe challenge - wait longer before releasing, walk in and out, open and close the door several times, say other things, throw a toy etc. Then move it to a different door - bedroom, backdoor etc. Finally when it is a solid reliable behaviour at a variety of doors go to the front door and repeat there. Use a long line for safety so you can put your foot on if needed to stop them but usually by then it is quite solid, however if you want to practice releasing to outside and are still working on the recall side of it then you want the long line anyway. Oh yes - sometimes allow them through the door as the reward, other times givem them a reward on the same side of the door as being released will not always mean going through the door. My generic release is OK and it is important to still release and reward even if not letting them through the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) With pup I just say "Emmy!" and reward. Thousands of times. At 5 months old she had a very reliable recall in any situation and at nearly 6 months old I can call her off a bird (or 3!), which being a gundog, is nearly her favourite thing in the world. I don't do any on lead training (apart from a bit of loose lead walking at the shopping strip for socialisation) and am now having to train her to accept a collar a bit more. Edited February 4, 2011 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I accidentally taught Daisy not to bolt out the front door. At our old place, I used to feed the cat on the front porch next to the door. Daisy worked out very quickly that sometimes there would be cat biscuits in the bowl next to the front door so if the front door was ever open and she got out, she'd get about two paws out the door before stopping and licking the cats bowl and scenting around for any lost biscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipandcoach Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 NOT doing something is not a behaviour. What do you want he to do instead? Reward that to buggery. My 3 year old dog has been so heavily rewarded for checking in and hanging about that every couple of minutes when he's off leash he tends to swan back to us and fall in at someone's thigh hoping they will notice how good he's being and give him a treat. These skills can be taught, but to be really effective they have to be maintained. We carry treats all the time so we can maintain the behaviour we like. That includes awesome recall treats. Some days I have to get OH to take the dogs or the recall treats because it's the only way to get the dogs far enough away to practise a recall. Yes good point Corvus! Rewarding just hanging around you is def going to help. My dog also "checks in" with me very frequently when off lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipandcoach Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Hi all,I'm just wanting to get some feedback about an issue with our 1 1/2 year old dog Mia and hopefully find out the best way to train her to overcome it. Basically we'd like her to get to the point where she can be off lead out of the yard without running away. Apologies in advance for the length of this post. I tend to ramble in order to get a point across :D First off, before I say anything else, I'd like to clarify that when she is being taken for walks, she is always on a lead. We never take her for walks in neighborhoods or in streets unless she is on a lead. The only time we allow her to roam a bit off lead is when she is on designated "dogs allowed" areas of the beach. I'm not wanting to take this dog for walks down the street off lead. I'd never do that. A lot of idiots in my neighborhood do that and one of these days they will no doubt lose their dog to a passing car. When entering or leaving the house, you always have to tell her to stay and make her stand back a bit before you enter or leave (we usually keep the front door open with the screen door closed). When visitors come over you always have to tell Mia to step back a bit while the person is entering so there's no chance for her to get thruogh the door. When she can get out the front door, she immediately wants to bolt off and go exploring, and it's a major pain to get her back. She keeps running, stopping, sniffing, running some more etc. Eventually she'll come back to me after following her a bit. Or if I get the car and drive over to where she is and open the door, she will usually run and jump in the car with no drama. If I want to take her for a ride in the car (no garage, car is parked outside), I always have to put the lead on her and walk her to the car. It's not the end of the world I know, but it's an annoyance to have to do this, especially if she won't be getting out of the car at the destination (therefore not leading the lead except to get to the car from the house and then from the car back to the house once I return). She knows what "wanna go for a ride?" means (she loves car rides), but if I open the door and let her out without a lead and walk to the car, she will jog straight past the car and go down the street and tune out what I'm saying to her. At home inside or out in the backyard she is an extremely obedient dog. She has done well in obedience classes (then again that was 99% lead work). On the beach even when she is running around a fair distance from me, she will come back to me when I call her (and I reward her with a treat to reinforce the recall). Obviously in our neighborhood there is more danger so I don't want to give her the luxury of being allowed to be more than a couple of meters from me at all times if she doesn't have a lead on. She gets plenty of walks, lots of exercise so I don't think it's boredom. Once in a blue moon she might dig in the yard but it's very rare, and she hasn't ever tried to escape the backyard or jump the fence in order to explore the neighborhood. I just worry that in the event someone mistakenly forgets to close the side gate properly without us knowing, that she'll start wandering and (assuming we see her when she's leaving the yard) we'll have a hard time getting her to come back. All in all she is a wonderful dog. She's extremely smart, very friendly, wonderful personality, and loves people to death. This issue is really the only ongoing problem we've had with her. She's eager to learn and really likes the attention she's gets when you try and teach her things. I guess I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about breaking her of this behaviour. I feel like if I knew of the proper way to go about teaching her, she would be receptive to it, since she's been very easy to train in every other respect. I'd appreciate some feedback. Thanks O.K! So heres a few points to follow to have a reliable off-leash dog in any location. 1. If she will come back to you at the beach then you are obviously doing the right sort of recall training. The problem is you have only "proofed" (practiced and succeeded) the behaviour in 1 or 2 locations. For every behaviour you desire you must practice it in a multitude of locations with a whole bunch of different distractions. Start practicing your recall in new locations. Start out the front of your house. Have her on a lead (a really long one if available) let it extend then call her to you. 2. New #1 Rule: Before Mia is allowed to go for a walk or go to the dog beach she must first come to you. This can seem a bit silly but its gold. Before opening the door for your walk call her away from the door have her sit then go and open it. Do the same outside, let her extend to the end of the lead, call her back to you then proceed your walk. Do this every 20 metres on your walk. This reinforces that the only way to go exploring around your house is to come to you first. (you can also add this exercise to every activity, like before dinner, before sniffing a tree, before meeting a dog). It teaches the dog that to get to great things in front of them they must come to you first! At first they won't get it, they will stare at you blankly as it's a very new concept to a dog. Be very patient and magic will happen. 3. Start taking her to the off-leash areas more often (at least 3-4 times per week). This will empty her off-leash exploring bucket and she will be much less likely to go and empty it herself (by running out the front). I'm not sure how often you walk her but if it's less than once a day I would increase the walks as well. 4. When she does come to you have her sit, grab her collar THEN dispense a treat. This will stop her ducking and weaving and is a great safety behaviour to install incase you do have to grab her suddenly. 5. When doing recall exercises its important to understand that on the dog's terms its an expensive behaviour (it's a big ask). So we must reward accordingly. Especially in the beginning of your training, find the best treat in the world to Mia. Give a handful of it for recalls (I know this seems crazy but it works). Slowly reduce the amount of treats as you can't keep giving handfuls for more than a couple of weeks. Keep the amount of treats at a level much higher than for other less expensive behaviours, such as, sitting. Until you have a super strong recall I would always give a treat, and especially always if you end the play session for the day (to make up for the punishment) 6. Never punish Mia for coming to you (this includes unintentional punishment: ending a play session, going inside, scolding her for running away in the first place) 7. Install a new sound to recalls, something that surprises her and intrigues her. Give a huge handful of tasty treats when you do this special sound. Weird squealy noises, rolls your lips like a motor car etc. Whatever you like. You will feel funny at first but after 1-2 times of such a huge reward for this noise she will come running. You can practice in the house. Always follow this noise with a huge amount of treats. You can add a command after the noise once she comes running every single time with no hesitation. I hope this helps you a lot and if you need any more help you can PM me no problems. :D Goodluck!!!!! 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TangerineDream Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 clip and coach - those tips are fabulous ..."hey Tango........we have some work to do" - I have to find a way of proofing him against kangaroos, rabbits and cats...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 7. Install a new sound to recalls, something that surprises her and intrigues her. Give a huge handful of tasty treats when you do this special sound. Weird squealy noises, rolls your lips like a motor car etc. Whatever you like. You will feel funny at first but after 1-2 times of such a huge reward for this noise she will come running. You can practice in the house. Always follow this noise with a huge amount of treats. You can add a command after the noise once she comes running every single time with no hesitation. Clipandcoach, I tried this this morning- it worked BRILLIANTLY!! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipandcoach Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 clip and coach - those tips are fabulous ..."hey Tango........we have some work to do" - I have to find a way of proofing him against kangaroos, rabbits and cats...... Thanks Tangerine! I'm glad I can help. I do have proofing exercises for chasing little furries. I would only ever suggest you try them though once you have a very strong recall in a few lead up exercises I usually give in my programs. Otherwise I would be setting you up for failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clipandcoach Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 7. Install a new sound to recalls, something that surprises her and intrigues her. Give a huge handful of tasty treats when you do this special sound. Weird squealy noises, rolls your lips like a motor car etc. Whatever you like. You will feel funny at first but after 1-2 times of such a huge reward for this noise she will come running. You can practice in the house. Always follow this noise with a huge amount of treats. You can add a command after the noise once she comes running every single time with no hesitation.Clipandcoach, I tried this this morning- it worked BRILLIANTLY!! Thanks! Awesome Deelee goodwork!!! Just keep those ridiculous treat portions for that sound for success! I give quite a lot of training tips on twitter and I am also in the process of updating my website to include articles that outline similar things to my forum posts so keep an eye out if you have a few other things you'd like to work on I just love that funny sound trick it's just well....funnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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