Jumping Issues

[kyliegirl]

I need help, no matter what I try or do it ends up being pointless. I tell people before they meet echo to wait until he sits and if he gets up or jumps to move away, the end result -they come in and then let echo jump all over them while I am trying to regain control.. I am sick of it, and I am thinking the only solution I have is to just say no and prevent anyone from greeting him or patting him because at least then he cant continue the behaviour..

I am over it really, no one listens, no one even bothers to do as I request and Echos jumping behaviour just gets worse each time he meets someone who encourages it.. What the hell can I do?? I make him sit before the attention, but he anticipates it and gets so worked up that he ignores the stim collar and any commands the second his front feet move. I am seriously considering just preventing him from getting any attention anymore from strangers. Its just becoming a frustrating situation and I really cannot take it anymore.

[Erny]

Take control.

Have him outside or in a crate when your guest arrive. Wait until THEY settle. If Echo is also settled, bring him in, but have him on a lead so you can control him. If your guests won't listen to you pop him back in the crate or have him outside.

You have in part, pointed out where some of your problem is :

I make him sit before the attention, but he anticipates it ...

Work the "neutralisation" theory. This involves being around people but getting nothing out of them. And if your guests won't listen to you, why should they get to interact with Echo? So by removing reinforcement, he learns there is nothing to anticipate.

I wouldn't use the E-Collar in the instance that you are. What methodology are you using it in - Negative Reinforcement/Low Stim or Positive Punishment/High Stim?

I definitely would NOT use it as a Positive Punishment in this situation and instance. And I think you're expecting too much too soon (is he properly trained to understand what the stim is about?) without taking any control to guide him (and putting him under too much pressure) for R-/Low Stim to be successful.

How old is Echo?

Its just becoming a frustrating situation and I really cannot take it anymore.

Another good reason to keep it simple by keeping your dog away from people who will take no notice of you. Echo will be picking up on your tension.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Erny

[koalathebear]

I tend to not let people pat our dogs unless they've agreed to the 'terms'. If the people you are encountering are ignoring your requests (family members can be the worst), then don't let them meet him anymore until he's settled. We leave ours in a crate or outside until they're settled, then they can interact. If people ignore what we ask, then we send the dogs out again.

ETA: our dogs still get very excited when people come to visit so they are kept outside. Once the guest is inside, seated and the dogs have calmed down, then they get invited inside. Different people have different tolerance thresholds - some people try to 'dance' with our dogs, which we discourage. Some people have told us that they are 'paws up' kind of people and don't mind their dogs (or other dogs) jumping up on them but if they're coming to our house, then we request that they don't undo the dogs training - this includes tradesmen who are often very friendly with the dogs and want to play rough with them. They've all been pretty good and the guy who put in the screen doors was very good at standing with his back to Elbie until Elbie sat nicely for pats

Edited April 25, 2011 by koalathebear

[kyliegirl]

erny the issue is this happens outside on the streets, not at home so I am unable to crate him.

We had training sessions with a professional about the stim collar and has been working very well with it so far, his recall has improved significantly with low stim (lvl 2 as he does not feel lvl 1 - its very low, it feels like a tapping feeling if i use it on my hand for lvl 2) the method is the stim goes away once he arrives when called or does the exact desired behaviour and is then heavily rewarded for doing a good job. He takes to it well and do not need to use it unless there is a distraction we haven't trained on. I still use clicker training for teaching tricks or new things. The stim collar was introduced not long ago as a means to prevent pulling on the lead and lunging at people on the streets (he was ignoring the clicker and found it more rewarding to lunge at people or pull ahead even when i stopped and refused to move, we werent getting any walking done and it took an hr to go 50 meters) He has improved amazingly and he no longer pulls, lunges or runs ahead and sits when i stop before crossing the streets. If I am doing the wrong thing you are welcome to tell me via pm, but i would prefer this topic be about working on jumping problems and not e-collars.

The reason we changed training methods is because no amount of food, praise or items were of value to him the second he gained focus on something, especially if it was people, he fixates to the point you could shove a raw meaty steak in his face and he ignores it. It really didn't matter the distance we were getting anymore, if he could see it and he knew what it was, there was nothing to get his attention - he fixates.

I could go back to the clicker and start from ground zero again (I have done this twice now with limited success) , but if i click for him sitting on command while he is distracted, he does not care, react or look for any reward from the clicker, its like he doesn't even hear it or care for it.. I have tried increasing the clicker value constantly, but he will ignore it frequently, I am unsure how much more value you can create on a click, I have tried random things too like sniffing things he is curious about or using strange objects he loves but at the moment it seems he will actively ignore it when he wants even though he is aware a reward will come the second the sound is made.

I think I will just stop letting him greet people on the streets, it just ends up me coming home frustrated, defeated and depressed and I just want to cry.

how can i neutralize a dog who now thinks dogs and people are more rewarding than myself? I dont know why things went completely opposite to what i planned, but he will fixate onto people and dogs now and finds them more rewarding than me. How can you reverse what has been done?

Edited April 25, 2011 by kyliegirl

[Kavik]

I can't help with the ecollar as I don't use one, but with the clicker it sounds like you are trying to use it to get his attention when he is already very distracted. With my dog aggro girl I first worked on look at me = click/treat with no distractions, then worked on this with a dog across the road (using methods from Click to Calm), and progressed slowly til she would automatically give me her attention when she sees another dog while we are walking (though still works best if we are stopped). You have to progress slowly with a lot of distance between yourself and the stimulus at first for this to work (in your case people). I know you said that no amount of food gets his attention, but I found that you build the value through the training. I use the same treats as I used before trying Click to Calm, and I used to be able to shove them in her face when another dog came and still not get control, whereas now she will give me her attention on her own with the treat in hand or bag, it is about how she has been conditioned. I would not let people come up and pat him on the street if he is going to get overly excited and you are working on it - I would just explain to people, most are understanding if you tell them you are training.

[koalathebear]

kyliegirl: I take my dogs to the local shops, outside Bunnings , the hospital, the markets etc to get them used to being around people without getting excited. So far, everyone has been very receptive to waiting until the dog sits for pats before actually going in for the pat - I've only once had a guy just stick his hand out and pat without asking. So perhaps pick your 'public spots' if the ones you're going to have people who don't listen to you. Another place that's great for practice is before and after class in the car park at the obedience club - everybody there will be happy to wait until the dog has settled before patting. I sometimes go to class quite a bit earlier just so that I can expose the dogs to more people and dogs.

On walks, I usually don't see people or the people I see are jogging/walking/walking their own dog so have no interest in interacting with my dog, so that's fine. If I found I was encountering overly high distraction, then I would avoid those zones. Basically it's about trying to gradually build up the distraction levels until the dog is desensitised. It looks as though wherever you're walking now and whoever you're meeting is not suitable so try somewhere else?

Edited April 25, 2011 by koalathebear

[poodlefan]

Is he on lead?

If people will not do as you ask, WALK AWAY.

He's your dog, and its your choice as to whether or not you allow others to pat him. If they will not wait for him to sit, then they don't pat him.

Simple really.

If you aren't a member of a dog training club or attending some sort of obedience classes, then I suggest you start. Clubs are full of people who will be willing to help you address these issues.

Sounds to me like a dog that would benefit from being taught some self control. I'd be starting crate games and formal training.

Edited April 25, 2011 by poodlefan

[Erny]

erny the issue is this happens outside on the streets, not at home so I am unable to crate him.

We had training sessions with a professional about the stim collar and has been working very well with it so far ...

Ok - I don't wish to stand on anyone's toes here. Your trainer has met yourself and your dog, where I have not. So the first suggestion I would make would be to go back to your trainer and express your frustration and continuing difficulties (have you done that?) and see what additional instruction your trainer would suggest.

I can tell you that I am able to empathise with you. I have moved through various training methods and training aids (in combination) before finding what worked best with my own boy in similar situations. Any anyone who knows me knows well that I am very aware and versed in the fantastic results the good use of an e-collar can bring, so this is not about the e-collar, but about whether the e-collar is right for the circumstance/s in which you are using it - at least for now. Sometimes we are in environments that are more intense than they should be to be able to expect our dogs to think clearly though, and that's when another method where you can achieve calm control of the unwanted behaviour is required.

No - you can't go back to "0" on the Neutralisation scale once your dog has collected positives, but you can settle down the anticipation by changing Echo's expectations. At present he expects to receive attention/pats from people. Remove the chances of that happening and the anticipation (which is adding to the intense excitement) can be reduced. Just like many dogs go ape when they see their leads come out of the cupboard. The reason? Because every time the lead comes out it means they're going for a walk. "Lead" has become a reliable predictor of "Walk". If the owners frequently took the lead out and did nothing with it, the dog's excitement at the anticipation of what was to come would diminish somewhat. It's probably not quite as simplistic as that in your case, as the emotion involved by the dog towards people and/or other dogs can often be far more complex than just excitement, but it will do as a basic example, I think.

When I know I'm going to take my boy into environments that are more crowded/intense than he's practised at and I don't want or need the distraction of people inviting themselves over to give a pat etc., I have my boy wear his "IN TRAINING" harness. I bought this from Steve Courtney (K9 Pro), if you're interested. I tend to find the formality of it produces a lot of 'space' respect that people might not normally think to give.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Erny

[kyliegirl]

Thanks Erny and everyone else.

may contact him for another session very soon to work on these problems, it could be beneficial to have that extra assistance.

In regards to how I have been using the collar when meeting people, initially I ask him to sit, if he does not respond immediately i stim for him to sit, then the person can approach, in which case he ends up breaking the sit and i tell him to sit again while stimming and he ignores the stim and ignores the sit command because by then he has what he wants. He usually does not break the sit, I took alot of time reinforcing him to not break the sit without a release cue, but if people are involved he will break, it doesnt matter how many people there are, if they go to pat him, he WILL break the sit, I can pull him away and make him sit but the second they go to pat again he will break again until he gets what he wants.. Maybe I am doing it wrong? Now that I think of it, I should probably just walk off and not let them pat him the second he breaks the sit the first time, as then he wont get what he wants because he broke the sit at the start?

I have full control of him to stop and release while playing tug when he is overexcited tugging, yet I cannot stop him to engage in a human no matter what the stim level is, I can raise it and he does not respond, I would assume he is at his peak when it involves people.. Overexcited to the point of being uncontrollable, I try to train with him not getting overexcited as he just becomes too stupid to do anything. But this seems impossible to achieve when people or dogs are involved. He has decided today that he now wants to be the tough guy and has begun to be reactive to dogs barking at him aggressively behind fences (never an issue before) he was trying to rev himself up, snorting huffing and raise his hackles.. That took a bit of effort to make him ignore them. Not something I want to encourage, nor do I wish to progress..

May have to look at a training harness for him, it might help. As stated before we only really use the collar for outside the house, because he will not respond to clicker training even though I had used it frequently since he was 10 weeks with us in the same environment and same distractions as the e-collar.

I can understand what you are saying Erny, I am disappointed in myself that things went this way and I despise the fact I failed myself in his neutralisation training. I didn't think it was reversible, but I will need to work on a way to combat it and hopefully remove some of the value he has obtained.

Edited April 25, 2011 by kyliegirl

[huski]

It sounds like you are asking him for too much too soon, I used to be able to wave steak under my dog's nose when she was distracted and she wouldn't even notice, getting results was about working on the principle of time before distance before distraction. Adding distractions to training needs to be done gradually, putting your dog in a situation where they are right next to a distraction and then trying to get their attention once they've crossed the threshold is setting both you and your dog up for failure.

You said he has no real drive for any rewards you offer when he is distracted - what rewards does he have value for when he's at home in a low distraction environment?

[Erny]

... it doesnt matter how many people there are, if they go to pat him, he WILL break the sit, I can pull him away and make him sit but the second they go to pat again he will break again until he gets what he wants.. Maybe I am doing it wrong?

I would punish the break in the sit by having the person turn and walk away immediately the sit started to look like it would be broken.

May have to look at a training harness for him, it might help.

It's not a "training harness" as such. It is a harness (that can be used for some types of training) that has "IN TRAINING" written on each side of it. You could do similar with a coat that has those words on it, although the harness does appear more formal.

As stated before we only really use the collar for outside the house, because he will not respond to clicker training even though I had used it frequently since he was 10 weeks with us in the same environment and same distractions as the e-collar.

I found that sometimes the distractions in the immediate environment that we can't avoid are too strong for the dog to resist, even when a stim is being delivered. If you dog is young (how old?) then expecting him to be able to think clearly enough when he is in excitement mode might be too tall an order. Which is where us taking control can be helpful by showing the dog exactly what we want him to do for him to 'win' the moment.

Neutralisation (my preference, although even I don't take it to its fullest degree, but I am judicious about it) is one way. A different way would be to stand on the lead to prevent the jumping up.

But if you are taking your advice from the person I think you are (K9 Pro?) then I expect you're in very good hands and I would be inclined to suggest that you follow his advice. If he doesn't know that you are still having difficulties, then he can't know to adjust anything. No one dog is the same and so we do need to give a process that is generally successful, and then fine tune it to suit the individual dog.

I can understand what you are saying Erny, I am disappointed in myself that things went this way and I despise the fact I failed myself in his neutralisation training. I didn't think it was reversible, but I will need to work on a way to combat it and hopefully remove some of the value he has obtained.

It's not about being "disappointed in [your]self" - it's about the learning curve you are on. Enjoy the journey .

It's not about "despise" nor about "failure". You haven't failed - your journey is simply not over yet.

It's not about "combatting" anything. It's about taking what is there and moulding it, working it, kneeding it as you might bread dough (sometimes really tough bread dough, at that ).

Try to look at things in a more positive light - your glass is half full, not half empty.

And again - how old is your dog? Is he young? If he is, then you are journeying together. Enjoy it, even though it might be difficult at times. Enjoy the ups and value the downs for the lessons they teach us .

[fuzzy82]

I would recommend the cook "Control Unleashed". It deals with self control and keeping the dog below threshold etc. It lists loads of exercises in detail that you can work on for increasing your dog's self control.

[kyliegirl]

sorry Erny i understood that it was a coat with "in training" on it, I worded it wrong Echo is 6 months now, he is beginning to change in behaviour a bit, I am assuming his behaviour change atm is normal for his age, he is starting to bark at things defensively, he is getting more whiney and pushy, he is really pushing his boundaries at home now and I am constantly needing to remind him his place.

I know I should be more positive, its very hard though when you feel like your not getting anywhere

I

[corvus]

Argh, I feel your pain. It is an ongoing frustration of mine to try to direct people how to interact with my dogs. I have found I never really have control of the situation. Even when I have dogs on leash, person a few metres away armed with food, and telling person exactly what to do, the person often does something else. I have got my very friendly dog mostly sorted with Look At That from Control Unleashed. It has made a huge difference, but it will only work where the dog is under threshold.

My other dog is currently going through a "sometimes strangers have food" obsessive thing that drives me crazy because he seems to think no rules he's ever been taught with us apply to anyone other than us. He is incredibly discriminatory! If I step in and tell him what to do, he'll do it, but then the situation is an interaction between me and him rather than him and the third person, so he learns nothing about the interaction between just him and the third person. I have decided to take a more holistic approach and really hammer home doggy zen with him. If he wants it, he should automatically sit or down and give me eye contact. Leslie McDevitt seems to think the environment should cue this response once it has been properly trained. But I suspect Leslie McDevitt is not as lazy as I am! I also suspect I have been letting him get things he wants largely for free here and there, watering down the effect. He wants a lot of stuff. I sometimes don't realise he wanted something until I've already given it to him. He's very good at getting knee jerk reactions out of me.

[Kavik]

sorry Erny i understood that it was a coat with "in training" on it, I worded it wrong Echo is 6 months now, he is beginning to change in behaviour a bit, I am assuming his behaviour change atm is normal for his age, he is starting to bark at things defensively, he is getting more whiney and pushy, he is really pushing his boundaries at home now and I am constantly needing to remind him his place.

I know I should be more positive, its very hard though when you feel like your not getting anywhere

I

6 months is just a baby! They do start to get a bit more challenging at this age. And don't worry, you CAN improve his behaviour. I only started using the principles from Click to Calm on my aggressive girl when she was 8 years old (she is now 11) and it has made a huge difference, if I had started at 6 months I probably could have fixed the problem altogether!

I also agree with huski - you are asking for too much too soon in terms of distractions, especially with such a young and exciteable dog. It is hard but the best thing would be to go somewhere that you can be around people from a distance or somewhere with people that are not likely to want to interact with your dog so he can get used to being around people and lose the expectation that everbody wants to have a visit.

[kyliegirl]

thanks kavik, I am going to start finding what his distance to distraction is and work on training from there

[Aidan3]

Agree with the other advice. Any time you need to "weigh up" the value of a reward or correction against the environment, it's a good sign to take a step back and re-evaluate how you can make things easier for the dog. I'm a bit of a purist, I try never to use rewards or corrections as a distraction if I can help it and I'd much rather move the dog away from the distraction and try again. It feels like you are going backwards sometimes, but it always pays dividends down the track.

One trick I use with particularly excitable young dogs is to have the dog tethered a short distance away. Approach when the dog is sitting, stop if he is moving, take a step back if he is jumping. Your timing has to be very good to get the point across effectively, but it can make for a quick and lasting solution if done well. It can then be repeated with a helper while you hold the leash, standing as firm as a post and never letting him pull you (or your arm), not saying or doing ANYTHING. Just be a tether point. Your helper obviously needs to know what to do, so you practise before-hand without a dog.

[Nekhbet]

any reason why you cant use a correction chain? As soon as he jumps or lunges give him a correction. If the stim isn't working then up it, all you're doing is building the dogs tolerance if you stim and he ignores it. Sounds like you're just going the long way round. COrrect for bad, reward for good.

[JoeK]

any reason why you cant use a correction chain? As soon as he jumps or lunges give him a correction. If the stim isn't working then up it, all you're doing is building the dogs tolerance if you stim and he ignores it. Sounds like you're just going the long way round. COrrect for bad, reward for good.

Yes, the reason because you using the chain on the dog making you a bad person, must be using the clicker and the treat then makes you good person is what happening on training today? Personally on this dog I using the prong collar or slipping collar and give him little pinch on the neck, NO I tell him in the breaking sit, I am thinking slipping collar is better than prong for taking drive from the dog to settle. Ecollar I probably not use in this behavior is better for handler to have restraining on the leash so the dog he know the correction come from the handler.

Joe

[Staff'n'Toller]

At his age I would perhaps find a club that was suitable where there's lots of people that you can neutralize him to, even if it means you start outside of any classes for the first month/s.

He may also be going through the "I'm not sure if you're friend or foe so I'm going to get as close as possible to your face to find out" -may or may not be an explanation of why the jumping behaviour is so strong but right now I can understand you would be frustrated as he is learning to disregard the stim, is too distracted for food rewards AND he's getting intermittent rewards from people who aren't following directions.

Try to remember that most people often have trouble following verbal directions and non-dog handlers have trouble learning the jumping 'dance' i.e. immediately turning away and giving no reinforcement.

I would actually only take him to situations that are controlled and focus on enjoying your walks and choosing areas specifically for their low possibility of other humans hassling you/your dog for pats at this stage.

Better that a trainer helps you who knows the specifics and you get some behaviour you can reward (or they can reward!) from one person each week instead of 5 fails out on the streets. In a larger club it can be a new trainer each week thus simulating your stranger scenario.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller