Prong Collars

[BorderBo]

Would welcome feedback from trainers and users of the prong collar - its effectiveness in helping to control pulling, lurching, lunging and focus in a highly reactive dog.

I am at the end of my own tether with a 10 month adolescent border x kelpie who is a rescue dog that I have had for 2 1/2 months. I have had dogs all throughout my life and have undertaken basic obedience training with each of them - I have never experienced any major behavioural issues that were not overcome and have enjoyed long and pleasurable relationships with these wonderful companions. I am struggling with my beautiful new boy - he has proven a big handful for me and whilst a recent training / boarding program has definitely improved things, he is still highly reactive around other dogs now back in his own environment and walking him twice daily is incredibly stressful and exhausting - for me.

I am no wallflower and don't let him willingly walk all over me ... out walking I am forever doing about right turns to bring him back to heel when he tries to forge ahead, do numerous sits, drops and stays, particularly when he starts to get worked up - and praise / reward him with high value treats accordingly for obedience, including for focus (I do numerous look exercises throughout our walks and he can keep focus during low level dog distractions.

I am used to enjoyable, stress-free walks and off-leash dog park activities with my former companions so this is all new and very daunting territory for me. I'm buggered if I know where I am going wrong with my leadership skills when out walking - when we are training in the park he is totally focused and eager to work for me - recreational walking is another, altogether different experience.

It's NILIF all the way at home and he has learned to be VERY respectful in every way - waits to be released through door ways, in and out of the car, eating his dinner, won't step a paw in areas of the home where he is not allowed access, etc. I can't fault his behaviour in this regard - he is good natured and a gentleman with everyone who visits our home. Ironically, when we are out walking / training in the park, numerous people come up to me and remark on what a well-behaved, well-trained dog he is - until a dog appears and then it all goes pear-shaped.

My trainer has suggested using a prong collar and I trialled him with this (under instruction / guidance) at obedience class yesterday with loads of dog distractions and it definitely made a huge difference. He was heeling well though will usually do this in a training environment.

I appreciate that prong / check chains / corrections are an emotive subject and am not looking to attract or generate personal criticism or disparagement - constructive comment from anyone who has used a prong collar to address these type of issues and whether they were successful / used short or long term.

Thank you in advance. :p

Edited August 21, 2011 by BorderBo

[Tilly]

I use a prong collar on both my GSD simply because if there were to misbehave I would not be physically strong enough to control them.

I do find that with the prong collar the dogs will behave better ... but a lot of dogs do become collar aware ... once they are back in a flat collar they can go back to pulling so it may be a long term thing.

The only problem I have with the prong collar is that I can't find any obedience classes who would allow the use of a prong collar - so you are lucky to have a trainer who is open minded enough to consider it an option.

Also consider having a back-up collar such as a check chain or something like the below collar ... some prong collar have been known to come apart.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Tilly

[Nekhbet]

If it works for you and helps the dog settle and learn then use it.

Just remember all equipment is always just a tool to help you get to your end goal. Plenty of reinforcement is always required over simply applying punishers, they're to help the dog learn what is wrong and then you show what is preferable.

[BorderBo]

I use a prong collar on both my GSD simply because if there were to misbehave I would not be physically strong enough to control them.

I do find that with the prong collar the dogs will behave better ... but a lot of dogs do become collar aware ... once they are back in a flat collar they can go back to pulling so it may be a long term thing.

The only problem I have with the prong collar is that I can't find any obedience classes who would allow the use of a prong collar - so you are lucky to have a trainer who is open minded enough to consider it an option.

Also consider having a back-up collar such as a check chain or something like the below collar ... some prong collar have been known to come apart.

Thanks, Tilly .... I have a reconstructed left shoulder which is really bearing the brunt of the behaviour at the moment (followed closely by my nerves!). I read a post on another site from a well-known trainer who is highly regarded on this site that a prong collar can be a life-line to an owner who is over their own threshold ..... I really related to that. I wondered about the collar aware issue and also whether dogs can become desensitized to the prong collar itself over time.

Thanks for the heads up regarding the back-up collar - that's a great idea. I'm assuming you link the same lead to both collars via their rings - if so and using a check chain or similar as the back-up collar, wouldn't that initiate a double correction?

Cheers, Vicki

[Nekhbet]

if you use a check chain you have it a larger then normal size so it doesnt initiate a correction. The DD collar if fitted correctly wont get in the way, check out the Leerburg website under prong collars for info on how they fit them together.

[BorderBo]

If it works for you and helps the dog settle and learn then use it.

Just remember all equipment is always just a tool to help you get to your end goal. Plenty of reinforcement is always required over simply applying punishers, they're to help the dog learn what is wrong and then you show what is preferable.

Excellent advice, thank you, and reflects my own thoughts and future direction. My research on the prong collar indicates that it is actually provides a far less severe and much safer correction than a check chain - I have been using a check chain for the past 10 days and I don't feel I have perfected the technique combined with the right timing - I don't like to think I am practising at my dog's expense. The placement of the darn thing does not stay where it should either, with me constantly having to readjust it. As soon as I do, he immediate shakes his head to reposition it. He is wearing the correct size and wears a flat collar too which I had hoped may help keep it in place. Talk about a learning curve!

[BorderBo]

if you use a check chain you have it a larger then normal size so it doesnt initiate a correction. The DD collar if fitted correctly wont get in the way, check out the Leerburg website under prong collars for info on how they fit them together.

Great - Thanks for that and I will check out the Leerburg website.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Have you tried a head halter like the gentle leader. You have to train the dog to accept it first with games and treats. It gives you control over your dog's head, what he looks at, what he sniffs. If you follow the instructions on the DVD, and get a really good fit - very tight (one finger) around the top of the neck above the adams apple/trachea and right under the skull bump, so it can't twist around the dog's face, it won't rub...

So when he spies another dog, you grab the clip under his chin and turn his head towards you and when he relaxes, you release the tension and see what he does - if he turns back towards the other dog - turn his head back towards you. Get far enough away from the other dog that he can pay attention to you and reward that.

I have seen the prong collar used successfully without damaging the dog, but the handler needs training to get their use of it right. Since you live near Steve Courtney - if that's the way you decide to go, I'd get some lessons from him specifically for managing this dog in the prong collar if I were you. But I'd try the GL first.

[Red Fox]

If it works for you and helps the dog settle and learn then use it.

Just remember all equipment is always just a tool to help you get to your end goal. Plenty of reinforcement is always required over simply applying punishers, they're to help the dog learn what is wrong and then you show what is preferable.

Excellent advice, thank you, and reflects my own thoughts and future direction. My research on the prong collar indicates that it is actually provides a far less severe and much safer correction than a check chain - I have been using a check chain for the past 10 days and I don't feel I have perfected the technique combined with the right timing - I don't like to think I am practising at my dog's expense. The placement of the darn thing does not stay where it should either, with me constantly having to readjust it. As soon as I do, he immediate shakes his head to reposition it. He is wearing the correct size and wears a flat collar too which I had hoped may help keep it in place. Talk about a learning curve!

I would agree with this. The pops needed for a dog to register the correction on a prong are much lighter than what is needed when using a check chain or a martingale. Easier on the handler and easier on the dog.

If you have a trainer who is willing to show you how to use the collar and are comfortable doing so I say go for it. You don't need anyones permission

For what it's worth I do use a prong collar on my dog and have found it to be invaluable.

[Red Fox]

I'd not use a head collar on a reactive dog. It's all well and good when you're training in a controlled environment, but take that dog out on a walk and have it unexpectantly go over threshold (ie an offleash dog rushing you in the street or walking around a corner and coming face to face with another reactive dog, etc) and you're going to have limited control and probably spinal damage to go with it.

Teaching your dog focus under threshold is a good idea, but that could just as easily be done on a flat collar or a mart IMO.

[Nekhbet]

check chain and prong work on a different mechanism in what effect they put on the dog. The check chain combines sound as well as a sharp sensation around the neck (if used properly) whereas the prong will work on a different level with it's pinching sensation around the neck. Hence why some dogs really feel weird with a prong on the first time.

But it is true you need a lot less on a prong then you will with a check chain ... well most of the time

[BorderBo]

I'd not use a head collar on a reactive dog. It's all well and good when you're training in a controlled environment, but take that dog out on a walk and have it unexpectantly go over threshold (ie an offleash dog rushing you in the street or walking around a corner and coming face to face with another reactive dog, etc) and you're going to have limited control and probably spinal damage to go with it.

Teaching your dog focus under threshold is a good idea, but that could just as easily be done on a flat collar or a mart IMO.

I was directed towards a Gentle Leader by my prior trainer from a franchise affair dog training centre. It was correctly fitted by him, together with a slip collar (not a check chain nor a martingale but similar to the latter) - i.e. lead was connected at both ends to these two tools. I was to engage the Gentle Leader as required. My dog hated it and was continuously stopping and trying to paw it off (after many weeks and treats combined). It rubbed the fur off his nose and would edge up close under his eyes. I also tried a Halti prior to this at someone else's suggestion - the dog trainer had a hard preference for the GL and persuaded me to buy that. The trainer I am ultimately working with concurs with you about this type of device being totally unsuitable for a reactive dog / lunger and also believed that the GL / combined collar affair was stressing the dog. The check chain whilst it barely goes over my dog's head is too loose once it reaches his neck making corrections far less effective.

Do you use a back up collar with your prong collar, SecretKei? Does anyone know if the Dominate Dog collar that was recommended by Tilly and Nekhbet is available in AUS?

[BorderBo]

Have you tried a head halter like the gentle leader. You have to train the dog to accept it first with games and treats. It gives you control over your dog's head, what he looks at, what he sniffs. If you follow the instructions on the DVD, and get a really good fit - very tight (one finger) around the top of the neck above the adams apple/trachea and right under the skull bump, so it can't twist around the dog's face, it won't rub...

So when he spies another dog, you grab the clip under his chin and turn his head towards you and when he relaxes, you release the tension and see what he does - if he turns back towards the other dog - turn his head back towards you. Get far enough away from the other dog that he can pay attention to you and reward that.

I have seen the prong collar used successfully without damaging the dog, but the handler needs training to get their use of it right. Since you live near Steve Courtney - if that's the way you decide to go, I'd get some lessons from him specifically for managing this dog in the prong collar if I were you. But I'd try the GL first.

Thanks for your advice and yes, have tried the GL but it is not recommended for a lunger - from my research the Halti and GL can be just as problematic and damaging (if not more so) in the wrong hands and on the wrong dog. I appreciate your advice - it's all helpful.

[Nekhbet]

www.prok9supplies.com have some nylon choker style or K9 Pro have the ones with the clip

[bianca.a]

Wow this could have nearly been written by me!

I have a GSD who is now highly reactive when on lead to other dogs (lunging and barking). I have walked her with a prong however I *think* it may have made her worse. The new trainer I am using thinks that the cause of her reaction is fear based and that by me using the prong, she associated seeing a dog with a correction? Therefore making her worse.

I am attempting to use the LAT game with her and no corrections. I just today got a gentle-leader harness so tomorrow mornings walk will be ummmm interesting

Good luck and I am interested to hear how you progress :p

[Red Fox]

Do you use a back up collar with your prong collar, SecretKei? Does anyone know if the Dominate Dog collar that was recommended by Tilly and Nekhbet is available in AUS?

No I don't use one. A properly fitted prong collar should not come apart but that said it never hurts to have a back up

Steve from K9 Pro sells DD collars and will be able to give you advice on how to fit one. http://www.k9pro.com.au/products/Stabilisation-Collar.html

Another alternative is to use a small halter connector strap to connect the dead ring of the prong collar to the dogs flat collar.

http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?page=...rt&Itemid=5

[Nekhbet]

the reason prongs come apart is people open them at any link around the collar which stretches them.

I only ever use the last link near the looped chain, in 5 years the same collar has never come apart.

[JoeK]

Wow this could have nearly been written by me!

I have a GSD who is now highly reactive when on lead to other dogs (lunging and barking). I have walked her with a prong however I *think* it may have made her worse. The new trainer I am using thinks that the cause of her reaction is fear based and that by me using the prong, she associated seeing a dog with a correction? Therefore making her worse.

I am attempting to use the LAT game with her and no corrections. I just today got a gentle-leader harness so tomorrow mornings walk will be ummmm interesting

Good luck and I am interested to hear how you progress :p

Greetings Bianca.a

You needing a trainer who understands the Shepherd Dog and your new trainer I am thinking is beyond their depth with this behavior. The prong can elevating drive on the dog if the correction is not following from ignoring command, but the dog she needing in my opinion a slipping collar to take drive away from the dog to make her settling. Is easy to fix this problem if the trainer know what is doing and head collars on this problem is no good. No body experienced with training a working dog using head collars, could be just taking your money and guessing how to fixing your dog sound like to me?

Joe

[JoeK]

I use a prong collar on both my GSD simply because if there were to misbehave I would not be physically strong enough to control them.

I do find that with the prong collar the dogs will behave better ... but a lot of dogs do become collar aware ... once they are back in a flat collar they can go back to pulling so it may be a long term thing.

The only problem I have with the prong collar is that I can't find any obedience classes who would allow the use of a prong collar - so you are lucky to have a trainer who is open minded enough to consider it an option.

Also consider having a back-up collar such as a check chain or something like the below collar ... some prong collar have been known to come apart.

Many people use the prong for managing the dog and is working well when is on his neck, but the prong to stop him collar aware is to train him with the prong for the tool is different. Is the idea is the same as flat collar exept you have the added power in the prong to give softer correction for a better effect. Is not for letting the dog go to the ending of the leash and is good becuase he dosnt pull as hard because it teach him collar aware, you have to teach him not to pull using the prong as punishment for the misbehave so he learn the loose leash is nicer.

Joe

[Tilly]

Do you use a back up collar with your prong collar, SecretKei? Does anyone know if the Dominate Dog collar that was recommended by Tilly and Nekhbet is available in AUS?

No I don't use one. A properly fitted prong collar should not come apart but that said it never hurts to have a back up

Steve from K9 Pro sells DD collars and will be able to give you advice on how to fit one. http://www.k9pro.com.au/products/Stabilisation-Collar.html

Another alternative is to use a small halter connector strap to connect the dead ring of the prong collar to the dogs flat collar.

http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?page=...rt&Itemid=5

Totally agree with a properly fitted prong shouldn't come apart ...

My prong collars have quick lease clips (one scissor clip and a normal snap clip) - as I hated having to use the links to get it on and off. Our collars are the "heavy duty" version so it can be very difficult to get the links together again. It was the snap clip that failed for me ... but I have heard of some prong collars failing which have resulted on the dog running free. For me - the DD collar is a light weight safety back-up which I never leave home without.

I brought mine from K9 Pro.