Pug Colouring

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Well thank you for being so nice about everything :)

[dancinbcs]

Wow!

Firstly, Maebe let me reassure you that I had no intention of accusing you of anything. I regret that you felt insulted but feel that you may have been a little too sensitive.

I was only trying to point out to anyone considering breeding that it is a terrible trap to concentrate on a single trait because you can lose sight of other important things.

I try to be aware of the wide audience reading DOL so I probably lecture a bit, but unless I preface a remark with a username it is never directed at an individual.

To those who regret losing colours because breeders don't like them, or a favourite stud didn't carry that colour, it is interesting to note that in Pugs, black, although not as common as the fawn, is the dominant colour genetically. Black Pugs were introduced to Europe later than fawns and several times the colour has almost beeen lost due to the popularity of the fawn.

"Dominant colour genetically" means that you simply cannot have a black Pug unless one or both of the parents is black, but two black Pugs each carrying a recessive fawn gene can produce fawn puppies together. A black pug that does not carry a fawn gene cannot produce a fawn pug. The apricot, silver, smutty, rusty, blue etc are all created by one or more modifiers affecting the basic colour.

Maebe, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making your choice of colour or patterning one of your breeding goals as long as it is proportionate to your other goals. I am glad that you have stated that you won't make the prime goal. There is no "taboo" on questions of colour, nothing wrong with your interesting question but the point about health type and confirmation being important too did need to be made, more so to those considering breeding. Please don't let a misunderstanding put you off asking more queestions. None of us ever stop learning and asking questions is a great way to learn.

All dogs have the genes for sable or tan point and the K locus determines if the the pattern at the A locus shows through or not. Dogs that are KBKB are solid black and unable to produce patterned progeny. Dogs that are KBky are black but able to patterned progeny. If they are kyky then the pattern at the A locus shows so all sable (fawn) Pugs are kyky. The A locus also has a recessive black gene "a" but it is rarely found in most breeds. Bi-colour Shelties are caused by the a double recessive aa kyky.

[RuralPug]

All dogs have the genes for sable or tan point and the K locus determines if the the pattern at the A locus shows through or not. Dogs that are KBKB are solid black and unable to produce patterned progeny. Dogs that are KBky are black but able to patterned progeny. If they are kyky then the pattern at the A locus shows so all sable (fawn) Pugs are kyky. The A locus also has a recessive black gene "a" but it is rarely found in most breeds. Bi-colour Shelties are caused by the a double recessive aa kyky.

Are there new studies that confirm the bolded part of your statement? Could you share them please? Perhaps my information is not so up-to-date, I was of the impression that Pugs do not have the allele for tan points in their library at the A locus. My copy of Clarence Little certainly does not give Pugs that allele.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

RuralPug, I would be grateful if you could please help me out on this...

I have always been confused about the silver colour in the Pug breed standard.

From what I have read, the gene cch that gives the rare silver colour in Pugs is almost non-existent in the breed:

The true silver colour is ayay with probably the cch Allele instead of the C (ayay BB cchcch DD EmEm gg SS tt) so it is easy to see how difficult it would be to have a true silver, as the cch Gene is very difficult to find in Pugs at all, let alone to find two and mate them.

http://www.tantraspugs.com/pug-colour-genetics.asp

If that's the case, then why do [the people who write the breed standard] use the description "silver"? I mean, there aren't really any silver Pugs, are there? And why do some breeders call their Pugs "silver" and "silver fawn" when, genetically speaking, they can't possibly be? What they're calling silver is actually the gene ag that gives that smutty colour. Is that right? I guess silver sounds nicer than smutty LOL.

I don't mean to be focussing so much on colour, it's just that (and I didn't realise this until tonight) I'm in an inquiry about becoming a Pug breeder and I feel that these are the right questions *for me* to be asking at this time. You see, I wouldn't feel right trying to pass off a smutty fawn Pug as silver. Does that makes sense? :)

eta

Oh my god, I feel like I finally got to the concern I've been trying to express in this whole thread!

Edited November 12, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[RuralPug]

Maeby, we need to remember that the standard was written more than a century ago. Silver pugs were indeed in existence at that time and I have actually seen one in my lifetime - the base colour is somewhat similar to a Weimeraner. But we do not see them today, possibly for the reasons given in your quote. Silver fawns do still exist - their coats are highly reflective in bright sunlight - but are not common.

It is possible that true silver is a double cch but that silver fawn can phenotypically be either cch incompletely expressed or C with some other modifier - that would explain why silvers are never seen anymore but silver fawns sometimes still are. The cch silver aqnd silver fawn has been bred out, but the C silver fawn has not. This is all speculation, because we can't find a silver to do a DNA test on!

In my experience, you need a very light sprinkling of black hair throughout the fawn coat, which is a result of an incompletely expressed "smutty" modifier because the combinations of alleles that produce ""smutty" are linked to the ones that produce trace, pencilling, dark eyes and nails etc. It takes a mutation to break a chromosone and possibly shift linked genes onto separate chromosones so that you can breed out one trait without losing another. I was interested to read in this thread of attempts in other breeds to completely suppress that "smutty" modifier which result in a lack of desired pigment elsewhere.

I agree with you that there are breeders that label dark smutty fawns as "silver" when they are not, and, a lesser sin, lighter smutty fawns as "silver fawn". Whether there is deliberate deception involved or whether it is just a result of ignorance probably varies. There is also the difficulty of picking the adult colour at birth as fawns and silver fawns can look silver at birth, the coat lightens over the weeks after birth, so if puppies are registered before the coat lightens errors can be made.

Certainly what is TOO "smutty" to be acceptable can be a subjective opinion coloured by personal preference. Because the standard calls for "clearly defined" black markings in every colour except black then too much black throughout the coat will blur the edges of those markings which is why "smutty" is undesirable.

My own personal marker tends to be the chest - if the chest is dark (not counting small white spots) or has a large dark blaze then that coat is far too smutty for my liking. But I would rate a very smutty pug with excellent movement, nice round (not protruding) eyes and large nostrils as better than a clear coated pug with stilted gait, protruding or almond shaped eyes and pinched nostrils, all else being equal. If I was forced to choose, I would err on the side of too much pigment rather than too little, light or "honey" eyes particularly, for me, ruin the Pug expression.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

Thank you very much, that is very interesting :)

[dancinbcs]

All dogs have the genes for sable or tan point and the K locus determines if the the pattern at the A locus shows through or not. Dogs that are KBKB are solid black and unable to produce patterned progeny. Dogs that are KBky are black but able to patterned progeny. If they are kyky then the pattern at the A locus shows so all sable (fawn) Pugs are kyky. The A locus also has a recessive black gene "a" but it is rarely found in most breeds. Bi-colour Shelties are caused by the a double recessive aa kyky.

Are there new studies that confirm the bolded part of your statement? Could you share them please? Perhaps my information is not so up-to-date, I was of the impression that Pugs do not have the allele for tan points in their library at the A locus. My copy of Clarence Little certainly does not give Pugs that allele.

A alleles explained.

This link explains the A locus well and since it was written genetic testing seems to be confirming the existence of just the 4 alleles of aw, ay, at and rarely a, in all dogs of all breeds. Solid coloured dogs have any two of these genes but they do not show due to the K gene. I did ask earlier if tan point Pugs were ever seen to try to work out if Pugs do in fact have the at allele causing the look of shaded sable ayat or if the allele aw is the one responsible for the dark overlay. If black and tan is never seen in Pugs then aw is more likely but this could really only be determined by testing lots of Pugs to find out what alleles they have. It is only recently that the existence of aw has been found in the Border Collie breed but the a allele has not been found in them. Your desciption of a silver Pug being like a Wei colour is also puzzling as that should only be possible if the nose and other pigment are brown dilute, not black. More likely is a modifier of the aw gene. The proposed Chinchilla gene dilutes the yellow hair, not the black, so that wouldn't explain it either. I do wish they would hurry up and work out genetic tests for all the colours and patterns but as so many variations are now thought to be caused by modifiers not genes, that will pretty much be impossible.

In the mean time, while breeders should understand the genetics of colour in their breeds coming up with the "correct" description for a shade of a colour or pattern is pretty low on the list of priorities. As has already been said, conformation, soundness, health and breed type are much more important than colour and markings in breeding better dogs.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

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Edited November 13, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Dame Aussie]

I'd spend more time focusing on what you want to do rather than worrying about what some breeders may or may not be doing. There will always be dodgy breeders, in every breed.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

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Edited November 13, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[blakkjackal]

But the thing is, in a lot of breeds the colour names are just made up names that don't have anything to do with genetics. E.g. a merle Mudi is a cifra whereas a Beauceron of the same colour would be a harlequin (which is actuall a genetically different pattern, compare to harlequin Great danes for example). Blue is grey and grey is blue, white can mean a genetically yellow dog and so forth. Names are just names. I wish though that all colour names were universal, would make things a lot less complicated when one word wouldn't mean ten different things depending on context.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

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Edited November 13, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Brandiandwe]

Speaking as a non-breeder, I'd suggest not breeding in that case. Alternatively, surely satisfaction in breeding comes from your personal integrity in breeding the best, healthiest pugs you can and ensuring that they are registered to your satisfaction? If you rely on the actions and integrity of others in this game, as in others, you will be disappointed because if it isn't about colours it will be leg length, eye shape or something else.

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

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Edited November 13, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[Brandiandwe]

I'm afraid I'm still confused..... Are you worried about people mislabeling their dogs as silver when they aren't, undermining your attempts to breed true silver (or whatever. The science has gone sailing straight over my head. )? Or are you worried about not being able to breed silver pugs? Or being disappointed because of the actions of others? Or something else?

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

It's okay, thanks very much for your help. I spoke to my psychologist about it and I have decided not to become a Pug breeder.

eta

I'm sorry about the deleted posts.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Maeby Fünke