Feeling A Bit Demoralised - But Getting Better!

[ninaandted]

Hi there,

I'm feeling a bit demoralised at the moment with my training with Nina. We just seem to be breaking through with one behaviour and then she will either revert back to old habits or develop a new behaviour!! she's just twelve months old, lab x bc x boxer.

I'm sure there are a variety of causes but at the moment I really feel like I'm letting her down because I just don't know how to train her with some of these!!

For example, we had reduced her reactions to passing cars, people, barking dogs behind fences, passing dogs and we were making real progress using the "leave" command. then this week she decides that people approaching are really bad and she is barking in her "I mean business" bark. She is obviously afraid (she hides behind my legs until she winds herself up and then let's go). People approaching with dogs are okay though apparently (sigh).

I've booked a trainer to come and work with us at home for a few sessions (the trainer doesn't seem to think we are going to need too many classes - I know we will ) we had stopped going to the group training we were going to because the trainer kept using Nina as the "example" dog for check chain corrections and I'd had enough of it. I'm currently looking around for another group training opportunity near by to us to start back at because she loved it (other than the corrections) and it really reduced her attraction to other dogs - seemd to give her her dose of pooch smells.

she's a really lovely dog and very trainable and is responding very well to the new clicker training we have just started - but she is a genius for coming up with new behaviours that I have to work on and I just don't want to let her down, it's not her fault that I'm an inadequate trainer.

Should I be doing something else as well? Probably sounds like overkill but I just don't want to let her down.

Edited June 8, 2005 by ninaandted

[haven]

I have found that dogs are a bit like a game of pic up sticks or jenga (i think it's called that), in that when you make changes to one thing, it affects others.

It all depends on the dog, but I have a 5yr old GSD that suffered with enormous anxiety issues when I got him 3 years ago. As I have put a huge amount of work into getting him over these issues but he still has the anxiety I believe it is a combination of genetics and inadequate early socialisation. While he has improved immensly, he does exactly what you described: when he gets over one issue, he suddenly develops another with something he previously had no issue with. I believe it is because he has that anxiety and it has to be displayed somehow.

I know it is frustating, sometimes upsetting and easy to feel like it's never going to get better! I think the best way to tackle behavioural issues is from all sides. Getting a trainer out is a great idea, but I'd suggest you go one step further and join an obedience club that has access to a qualified behaviourist. If you are in Melb I can recommend one, otherwise perhaps another DOLer can make a suggestion?

Hang in there

[Guest wheels]

I believe that it is important to not just tackle these sort of issues at home. A lot of dogs benefit from group classes as it deals with so many other issues as well. I agree with the previous post in that having a Dog Behaviourist available at the Obedience Centre is so important (and much cheaper) I had a Dog Behaviourist come out to see me a couple of years ago (when I lived in Brisbane) and it cost me $440 for a 3 hour session. I am now a member of a club that has a Dog Behaviourist available at the centre for it's members to speak to and it doesn't cost any more than just being a member.

Edited June 2, 2005 by wheels

[ninaandted]

thanks for your replies. a group session with a dog behaviouralist is a good idea - I'll put that on the "criteria" for the groups I'm looking at.

I was going to try to get back into a group obedience class with Nina - it did help alot before, it's just that the closest one uses methods that I'm not comfortable with and that just plain old don't work for her!! but looking for one with a behaviouralist there is a great idea. I wouldn't have even known that such a thing was possible. thanks so much.

we'll hang in there. she is such a sweetie of a dog and on our walk last night she's giving me lightening fast sits and drops and heels. looking up at me as if to say "go on click mum! I did it!" it's just the new anxious behaviours that she comes up with! no one could call her boring!!

[V.A.H.]

Are there clicker training experts could post here who could assist?

Ive never tried it

Generally speaking I always worked from no distractions out -to go to one other friend with their dog and try things,

then move on to greater distractions,

and that applied to each obedience aspect and the show training--

but I always thought and still do its most essential for the dog to socialise all the time with hoomans and dogs and other animals

,but I never made that formal, it was always fun for my dogs at home or walkies or going in theacr carrier to visit with me, where we were welcomed and going to shows with their older friends before time to begin.

and having another one or few of the breed laid a foundation

Good luck with t he trainer--get forward plans you can follow with no extra cost, that would be MY aim!

[KateH]

I've been feeling a bit demoralised as well and I've got a rather well-adjusted puppy. We're having training problems which I suspect are more to do with me than her.

It's so easy to read all the opinions on offer, have some minor successes and failures, and become a confused and ground down. Every second person tells me something different, and when my dog (or myself) doesn't automatically just "get it" people seem to think I'm not putting any effort in.

And both myself and the dog have bad days and good days, and the bad days are kinda crappy and it takes us two hours to walk to the park and back again when it should only take 30 minutes.

And then I read stuff on these forums about some people "should just not own dogs" and I wonder... is that me? Am I ruining this poor dog through my well-intentioned but uneducated attempts at training?

Sigh. I'm sure it'll all work out in the end... we'll all muddle through. Sorry about the self-indulgent post, yesterday was one of those bad days where Jasper just DID NOT seem to get what I wanted her to do.

"Walk nicely? OK, I'll jump around at the end of the leash even though I've been walking brilliantly for a few weeks now. Ignore other dogs? Nope, I think I'll chuck the biggest tantrum you've ever seen and whine and throw myself on the ground and howl so much you'd think I was being beaten EVERY time I even sense the presence of another four-legged creature. Chase the ball? Nope, I'm going to run around you in circles for half an hour with the ball in my mouth."

Anyway, good luck with your dog! I'm sure you're doing a wonderful job.

[MonElite]

ninaandted - where are you located?

[ninaandted]

Oh KateH your post made me laugh - thanks for that. I know that wasn't the intention of it but I know exactly where you are at.

VAH - The trainer that is coming around is going to give me a bit of a program to work with and is clicker savvy so I'm actually quite excited about it.

myszka - we're in Helensburgh. south of Sydney.

Nina has actually been socialised with other dogs (loves them... that's the problem) and people (loves them and wants to jump all over them) but she's suddenly decided that men approaching us in the dark on our walks are a problem. (men approaching us with dogs however are okay. go figure!) if we invited them into our home or her yard she wouldn't be concerned at all, which is the strange part - it isn't a blanket fear - just in specific situations!!

I'm learning alot though - I just hope I'm learning it fast enough to really help her and do the best by her. I'm absolutely positive that at LEAST 80% of the problem is my end of the leash - that's why I feel so bad.

thanks again everyone for your support.

Edited June 3, 2005 by ninaandted

[ninaandted]

Hi Myszka,

just thought I'd let you know that I got your PM and replied. I just hope I didn't stuff up the technology and that you eventually get it!

it was a "yes please" - tell me the what I need to do and know answer.

Thanks heaps.

[MonElite]

believe it or not didnt get your PM but will send you infor in a sec.

[ninaandted]

no worries - I got you next PM. I thought I might have picked the wrong option for replying to you. der brain that I am.

[haven]

I feel for you guys, really, because I too have a dog with an ongoing behaviour problem (anxiety, 3yrs and counting). You're doing all the right things, it just takes time. There are breakthroughs and there are regressions and there are times when you just feel like its never going to happen and you want to give up. When I feel this way I think back to the time when I got my GSD. He was in such a bad state both physically and mentally that I recall warning my family not to get too attatched to him in case he didn't survive. When I look at him now, happy and healthy most of the time his 'shortcomings' don't seem so short.

On the subject of advice: You will get conflicting advice, sometimes from people who are lack education and are misinformed, but in most cases it is simply because there are many ways to treat different things. It's up to you to decide what combination of things work best and are acceptable to you. If in doubt, ask for a second opinion from a qualified, experienced, educated trainer.

[ninaandted]

Thanks everyone for your support and I'm very excited about all the training I'm going to be undergoing.

Just thought I'd report on a little bit of progress we've had.

At the suggestion of the trainer I started walking Nina and Ted separately as an experiment to see if there was any difference in their behaviours. Nina, because we had her before Ted, has obviously been out with me alone before, but Ted has always been with Nina.

Well - walk one was a bit of a disaster with Ted!

He trotted down our front path quite happily, after a slight anxious pause at the front door when he realised Nina wasn't with us, but as soon as we were out on the road he lay down facing the house and started crying!! Nothing could coax him to turn and face me - not even a bit of roast chicken - and he's a food oriented boy!! so we waited about five minutes and I just let him get a bit relaxed there and we went inside. Walk Two - after fifteen minutes and clicking each time he turned to face me (this is progress) we make it one house up the street! Walk three same start - click and jackpot reward every time he looked around at me or moved in my direction - after fifteen minutes we make it two houses up the street. Walk four - same reaction but I decide to up how exciting I am - manage to get him jogging along side of me, we make it out of our street with a few false starts, lots of crying and tail between his legs - as soon as we go around the corner - tail up in the air trotting along no worries!! Repeat this performace on walk five but taking less time up the street. Phew!

Nina on the otherhand - when she is by herself is just herself - but the main difference is me - I can devote the time and attention to her one on one and over the past five walks there is been great improvement. There's still more work to do with both of them, but boy - what a difference a week makes!!

Thanks again everyone,

Naomi

[Guest Tess32]

Good on you!

Nat

[haven]

That's great, keep us posted! Try to keep in mind your body language when you walk with Ted. Be confident and assured, like you expect him to walk with you and the thought that he wouldn't never even crossed your mind. Try not to fall into the trap of coaxing him. You might like to try going out before you walk and laying a trail of food for him to follow, that way the walk itself is enjoyable and you are there to add bonus pats and praise.

Hope it continues to go well

[ninaandted]

just a funny update. we had the trainer come to our house this weekend (she couldn't make it last weekend).

It was just like an episode of supernanny with me as one of the terrible parents with the kids running rings around them!!

Ted was on his best behaviour and did NONE of the things I had been talking to the trainer about on the phone - little smarty pants that he is and Nina was on her ABSOLUTE WORST behaviour. we didn't even get out in the yard with her because she had wound herself up so much while we were out with Ted that she was a complete attention seeking monster when we got back inside.

anyway - I got the lecture all the parents get! If it hadn't been so true it would have been funny, but yet again I have been outsmarted by a dog and Nina has me trained to throw the ball whenever she wants - to respond whenever she cries (you know, makes that doggie whining sound). so we're on a program of ignoring her crying and presenting the ball and only playing when we want to (which is actually a relief). I HADN'T EVEN NOTICED - it was quite horrifying - I've taught her half these behaviours (and my husband the other half!!). although the trainer thinks there is some genetics involved there isn't nearly enough to get me off the hook!!

fun and games!!! anyway it is working nicely so far except that (surprise surprise) my OH is having problems sticking with the program!! I'm just hoping she hasn't hidden any cameras about the place!!

[haven]

Good work

It's awful isn't it, when you step back and see things in a different light. I remember when I was doing the Certificate III in dog behaviour and training. The lecturer would say "oh and you should never do _______" and I was like doh! I did that just this morning! Cringeworthy

[Sparty]

Just a question guys what is your opinion on the herbal "rescue remedy" I have been told it works a treat on dogs, and i have noticed a HUGE change in Kira after 2 drops before training or at a new place as she can be a nervous twitchy wreck otherwise which is kind of weird for such a dominant bitch?? LOL i did it in the dark on wednesday night before trial training and i think she got a few extra drops she was actually greeting other dogs!! not her at all!! she can get snappy if confronted by a pushy dog and usually she stands back and lets Sparty socialize

[haven]

I haven't used rescue remedy because I have heard that it has a high alcohol content. Of course there are some herbal remedies that are made especially for dogs. I prefer to treat my dogs in their diet for a long term health benefit, rather than using something like rescue remedy, which I view as more of a quick fix. In some cases I guess that is all you need.

[SamAdams]

ninaandted - you are doing a great job I have a pretty nervous dog and have to work really hard all the time with him! One week he is fine with the vacuum, the next he thinks it is going to kill him... two steps forward, one step back.

-My husband is having trouble following the "rules" too.. Instead of ignoring Patches when he gets nervous he will try to "comfort" him.. (pats, and stuff)... Ugh! I have to keep reminding him that he's actually rewarding the dogs nervous behavior.. We are getting there though..

Hang on for a bumpy ride!

Sam