Herding

[Vickie]

Thought I'd start up a thread about this, for Cloverfdch.

How do you teach a stop? When do you teach it? When do you expect it to be reliable?

I have a question as well...after a stop, do you allow your dog to start moving again, or does it have to wait for a command?

I have a little clip of Trim working. It's not great, but might be useful for discussion on stops. I'll try to load it later tonight. I think there's enough of us here interested to have a good discussion.

[Guest cloverfdch]

Thankyou ;). I look forward to suggestions and training advice.

[Vickie]

FWIW, here are some of my limited thoughts/experiences...

Since I started I've found there are at least 2 very different trains of thought on a stop.

Some seem to get a stop & a call off before they allow the dog to move much at all on sheep. They do it using leads so that the dog must stop when asked. It's very reliable but can be very mechanical too.

Others don't really stress about it too much and let it happen when the dog is comfortable on the sheep.

With Trim I did it the 2nd way. In the beginning we didn't really ask for a stop, just caught her when we wanted to stop. As she became more comfortable & more in control of the sheep, we started to set up situations where she could bring the sheep to me in a corner to ask for a stop on balance, when everything was calm. She seemed to learn the word without too much effort and now we're getting pretty reliable off balance stops. There are still situations where she sees something that I don't & she doesn't stop when I ask, but they are becoming rarer. I think part of this is because she is trusting me more to be in control & part of it is become I am becoming better at recognising a situation which she would find it difficult to stop in.

IMO, there is nothing more frustrating that watching someone yelling stop at their dog endlessly while the dog is desperately trying to get control of the sheep.

ETA: I'm sure I've done some of this too ;) before I knew better

At the stage we're at, I'm still trying only to ask for it when I know I'll get it.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Vickie

[Vickie]

Here's a very small clip...you may have to play it a couple of times to stop it freezing as I didn't shrink it 1st. It's not the best, but it's a good example & shows situations where it wouldn't be easy for a young dog to stop & a situation where they would be comfortable to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/?v=NycpO4G4sN8

[WaikikamukauAussies]

Hi

I have Aussies I herd with, my older boy doesn't like to drop, so I taught him the sit which I normally only have to say twice, & I say 'wait' if I am opening a pen or gate, I did let him get comfortable with the sheep first before starting the commands, & he loves herding, *g* he sacres me though as before a trial he will be outside, whining, barking, pulling carrying on & I think "help" but once I walk off leash ;) through that gate he stays with me & won't go until I give him the command of "get out"

My girl Fern will sit but isn't keen but she is more calmer, I am at the moemtn teaching her to sit & wait for me.

Millie my 4mth old I have already started on sheep, in a small round pen, I have to be carefulas she is full on isn't afraid which worries me trying to keep an eye on her & a sheep that is giving her the 'eye'!! She is on leash at the moemnt, but I have a few times let the leash go still on so I can grab it if neccessary, I am trying to teach her at the moment just to'come' to me even if she is moving a sheep & a drop/sit, I do use food at the moment with her & LOTS of praise.

Andrea, The Aussies, The Ponies & Joe (Border croos kelpie)

[chezzyr]

*sigh* loving seeing a dog work sheep, or for that matter a horse cutting cows!

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Vickie

Love the clip of Trim. She looks as though she does well! I feel an "Encourage" ribbon coming on ;)

We taught Tasha to sit instead of drop on the stop (just our preference only- even though sometimes she goes into a drop when she is eyeing strongly). We didn't teach the stop straight away, but rather when she was confident with the sheep and when she had good balance.

We taught the stop whilst working some "tame" sheep as it would have been too stressful for her on some of the wild buggers. Her hand signal to stop was an outstretched arm, so it made it easier to teach the stop, using a rake as an extension of my arm when in with the sheep.

The technique I was taught was that whilst you've got the dog balancing, you turn into the sheep, walk though them and give the command. You then use your body to block the dog from going anywhere else until they stop/sit. Lower your arms as you approach and praise, then let them back in again. Eventually you pair the hand signal with a whistle and slowly remove the hand signal.

We found this worked well with Tasha.

There are still situations where she sees something that I don't & she doesn't stop when I ask

You're not alone with this one!

I'm not too sure about working with leads whilst the dog is in with sheep because then you have to wean off the lead which is just double the work.

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Vickie

Love the clip of Trim. She looks as though she does well! I feel an "Encourage" ribbon coming on ;)

We taught Tasha to sit instead of drop on the stop (just our preference only- even though sometimes she goes into a drop when she is eyeing strongly). We didn't teach the stop straight away, but rather when she was confident with the sheep and when she had good balance.

We taught the stop whilst working some "tame" sheep as it would have been too stressful for her on some of the wild buggers. Her hand signal to stop was an outstretched arm, so it made it easier to teach the stop, using a rake as an extension of my arm when in with the sheep.

The technique I was taught was that whilst you've got the dog balancing, you turn into the sheep, walk though them and give the command. You then use your body to block the dog from going anywhere else until they stop/sit. Lower your arms as you approach and praise, then let them back in again. Eventually you pair the hand signal with a whistle and slowly remove the hand signal.

We found this worked well with Tasha.

There are still situations where she sees something that I don't & she doesn't stop when I ask

You're not alone with this one!

I'm not too sure about working with leads whilst the dog is in with sheep because then you have to wean off the lead which is just double the work.

[WaikikamukauAussies]

*lol* Cheryl

well you will have to come down to Tassie again to visit!!!! ;)

Kelpie: I only use the leash on a young puppy in a very small round yard (wouldn't use a leash on an older dog) until they are more confident & they come back to me, just incase of a sheep having a go at her, mind you the other week one hit my kneecap *ouch*

Andrea, The Aussies, The Ponies & Joe

[Vickie]

Kelpie-i,

your method sounds very similar to the one I was taught. I'm glad you mentioned the whistle. It's helped me work something out. Now that I've finally learnt to make some reliable sounds on it, I want to start using it with Trim. I haven't used the hand signal for a few months now on a stop. Reintroducing it may make it easier to teach the stop whistle and then I can fade it again. THANKS!!!

What do you think about letting the dog move when it's ready/right after a stop? I have 2 people trying to help me right now. One doesn't want the dog to move, unless asked...and the other, is encouraging letting the dog make the/some decisions. I'm more comfortable with the 2nd at this stage of her training. Her gate work is getting pretty good & when we 1st enter a paddock, she drops right inside the gate & waits for a command, but often I think she is right once working to get up when she does, and she is starting to stop at appropriate times without having to be asked. She is also fairly reliable to leave in a stop, on sheep for a few minutes which we have been building over time.

LOL, at the encourager ribbon. I'll just be happy if I actually get the guts to enter it, ;) who cares about the ribbons .

[Kelpie-i]

What do you think about letting the dog move when it's ready/right after a stop? I have 2 people trying to help me right now. One doesn't want the dog to move, unless asked...and the other, is encouraging letting the dog make the/some decisions

I agree with your decision to encourage the dog to make some decisions. An exampble is when we come to a gate, I will stop her and she waits until all sheep are through just in case some stray, then she goes through. There are no commands given here, just purely trusting her judgement.

I have seen some dogs at trials which work almost robotically, always waiting for their handlers every command. IMO, these dogs are not doing the work, their handlers are. It's almost like watching an obedience trial! Funny things is, sometimes the dog will use its own brain and will disobey the handler's direction which only makes the handler angry.

I only use the leash on a young puppy in a very small round yard (wouldn't use a leash on an older dog) until they are more confident & they come back to me, just incase of a sheep having a go at her, mind you the other week one hit my kneecap *ouch*

I suppose I cannot comment as we have never used a lead, but I do know of some people who prefer to start with one.

[Vickie]

Thanks Kelpie-i,

I'm happy letting her make decisions & will continue to do so. I know what you mean about robotic dogs and I am trying to avoid that at all costs. Some of them are so mechanical that they are not really in touch with the sheep. As you say, it is like obedience and while I am often impressed by it, it's not what I want for Trim.

I find it interesting too b/c everyone seems to want more power from their dogs, yet training in a robotic manner just seems to take the power out.

I'm not sure how I feel about the leash thing. I guess it depends on the dog. I see plenty of people do it, but they usually have good reason to, mostly to protect the sheep. I think it takes a pretty talented trainer to take a really full on dog in for the first time. There is a lady at out club who is really amazing, she doesn't use a leash, but moves so calmly & freely and almost gracefully with a new dog.

I put a leash on Trim last week, as I found a weak spot that she had & I wanted to help her through it. It worked well & gave her confidence in a situation she was worried in.

Edited July 25, 2005 by Vickie

[Lablover]

Sorry to butt into this thread as my interest in retrieving training and trials, where stopping on the whistle is also very important.

Do you work on stops to the voice and whistle extensively before introducing stock, as we do in retrieving circles?

[MolassesLass]

Do you work on stops to the voice and whistle extensively before introducing stock, as we do in retrieving circles?

My instructor tells me to NEVER use a herding command without stock present. These commands (whether hand signal, voice command or whistle) should only ever be given in context if they are to work properly.

We taught my older girl (started herding around 13 months old) the command Stop by first telling her to sit with a hand new hand signal and then gradually changed the word to stop with the same hand signal. It didn't take very long at all and is fairly well learnt. ;)

ETA: Oh and she isn't forced to sit on the stop anymore either. She chooses to stand/sit/drop whatever she likes, as long as she stops moving.

Edited July 25, 2005 by molasseslass

[Vickie]

I would say most people would not do this Lablover & certainly not extensively.

The majority of people I know frown on any kind of "dry" (without the sheep) training as they believe the dog should move & stop, always in relation to the sheep. I know some train a cast without sheep, but there are also many people against this as they believe it reduces the dogs ability to feel the sheep.

ETA: Sorry ML, posted at the same time...what she said...

Edited July 25, 2005 by Vickie

[Lablover]

Gee wizz. Really!!!! Would it not be confusing for a dog, in herding drive, if it does not know what it is being reprimanded for, if its basic obedience (stop) is not already taught?

I am trying gain a picture in my mind, as I would never expect a lab, for example, to sit to the whistle while training, without WEEKS of conditioning to stop/sit on command in a controlled setting.

[Vickie]

I'm not sure you can compare them LL.

Think about it like this...in a young dog, the instinct should be to fetch the sheep to the handler & gain control of them. If the dog has fetched the sheep & the sheep are settled & don't look like they want to break..the job is done. The dog should naturally stop, b/c there is nothing else to do. It is instinct and all dogs have different degrees of it, but as I said before, my dog will often stop without being asked, simply b/c things are in her control & she doesn't NEED to do anything.

Pups like to keep things moving, but as they mature, they shouldn't want to just keep moving the sheep around for no reason, they should want to do their job.

Does that make sense?

[MolassesLass]

Would it not be confusing for a dog, in herding drive, if it does not know what it is being reprimanded for, if its basic obedience (stop) is not already taught?

She knows what sit meant and so no, she wasn't confused at all when told to sit, why would she be? What dog with prior training for "sit" would be confused by being told to sit, no matter the situation? Not to say the dog may find it hard to do, but they certainly know what it means. And you can't move when you're sitting.

Perhaps you've got a miscontrued idea of how a dog is started on stock? They was we start is dog on-lead in a small round pen with 5 fairly dog-trained sheep. Walk around with the dog for a while to turn it on (mind out of the gutter! ;) ), and then take lead off etc. While in this controlled situation you would begin reinforcing the dogs obedience to commands of come and sit (or however you choose to teach stop) to work under the distraction of stock.

I am trying gain a picture in my mind, as I would never expect a lab, for example, to sit to the whistle while training, without WEEKS of conditioning to stop/sit on command in a controlled setting.

Are you speaking of a dog that knows sit before hand or a knows nothing dog?

[Lablover]

LOL LOL. I JUST knew I should have stayed out of this topic. LOL.

I have been to herding seminars in the past and attended herding Championships, but as I am so into retrieving training and trialling, I admit my memory of your concepts becomes dimmer by the day.

[Lablover]

I am trying gain a picture in my mind, as I would never expect a lab, for example, to sit to the whistle while training, without WEEKS of conditioning to stop/sit on command in a controlled setting.

Are you speaking of a dog that knows sit before hand or a knows nothing dog?

Yes. I am referring to a dog who has been taught the concept of sit very well, but in full prey drive (especially on a mark), requires weeks of education on stopping to a whistle command, never more so as distance from handler increases.