How Do I Get A Reliable Stay Happening?

[Melisski]

If teaching the say in a down, teach the dog to tip its back end over so its weight is more on one hip, rather than having the hind legs in a crouched position. That crouched position is good for a wait in a down, when it's going to be released, but the relaxed lying position helps the dog to settle.

So true - when Diesel's hyperactive, he'll only down in what I like to refer to as the 'sphinx' position, which inevitably leads to him breaking halfway through (currently working on down stays of about 2mins, at three metres away). If I can get him to relax on his side then he's quite happy to lie there for the next hour of class if I'd let him.

[chezzyr]

Yes I had always been led to believe eye contact was confronting/threatening but maybe my dog is just different

Sometimes she will come inside and stare at me intently as I am working on the computer, and continues to look at me even if I look at her. But my dog isnt very vocal and I believe she uses her eyes to communicate (I want to play, or go to bed Mum so I can settle down etc). Now if I go outside and partly crouch down and just "eye ball" her, she "eye balls" me back and then goes into a mad zoomy, play bow then racing around me barking and jumping up and wagging her tail.

But yeah I will have to work on not looking at her as much LOL (cant help it, Ive been sucked in by a collie)

Edited August 8, 2005 by chezzyr

[MonElite]

No-one else has mentioned it but do NOT make eye contact with your dog while it is in a stay. Look over its head or to the side but do not make eye contact as this will guarantee the dog will 'break' the stay.

It should not be a problem if the dog has been tought to watch your face.

I do make eye contact and have no problems

If its confrontational - the dog can look away, after all Im the boss

[espinay2]

One of the most important things with stays is to build a strong foundation. Do not go too fast to build up, time or distance. I cant emphasise that enough. Do not go too fast.

It is also important that the dog be relaxed in the stay. A dog that is relaxed will be less likely to move. The stay should be taught with the least stress possible, and if you are getting frustrated or stressed yourself, end the training session then and there. Do NOT try for 'just one more' before you quit.

If your dog is constantly breaking the stay, go back a step or two by decreasing time and/or distance.

I always start with the dog beside me and I stay beside the dog. I build up time with me right beside the dog before I even think of taking a small step away. A stay in the beginning may be only one or two seconds with you beside the dog. Next may be the time it takes for you to stand up straight and then bend down again. Always remember that when you first increase distance, you also decrease time and then work to build it up again at that distance.

Rewards/reinforcement should be given to the dog IN the stay position, not after you have given the release. If you reward afterwards, you are rewarding the getting up and not the stay. NEVER call the dog to you to reward him for a stay. Always go back to the dog and reward in the stay position before giving the release and allowing the dog to move.

It is preferable not to make eye contact if you can, although go with what your dog is most comfortable with. You can still watch your dog without making eye contact. Look at a spot near his tail.

dont stand rigid and stiff/not move while your dog is in a stay. Get your dog used to you moving. If you dont, a sneeze or unconcious swat at a fly during a stay could make your dog move. Stay relaxed. Later on you can get your dog used to you moving around, behind and even stepping over him in the stay, but make sure you build up the basics first and DONT GO TOO FAST.

If your dog moves in the stay, simply go and put him back in position. Be calm and dont growl or act mad as you go back to him. Go back a few steps and work on that foundation if it happens more than once. Reward/reinforce staying in the stay.

As I have said, building a strong, relaxed, stress free foundation in the stay is all important. Build a strong foundation and things wont fall over later

[BOF]

Only if you have earned the right to be boss. Just 'cos you're bigger doesn't make you the boss. I am the boss in my home too, but I do it in a way that my dogs understand - not in a human way.

If you are asking the dog to look at you you should hold something at your nose and have the dog look at that not into your eyes. Just my opinion - and it has always worked for me. Doesn't mean I am right just that it works for me.

[Staranais]

I think there is a big difference between watching a dog and staring at them.

My dog doesn't mind if I look at him - but if I glare or stare at him, he gets very uncomfortable. For him at least, looking is OK but staring is a threat.

[MonElite]

Yet again Am - a ditto from me ....

BOF - earned the right to be a boss???? Sorry what do you mean?

It would be a problem if I wasnt a boss........ I dont earn the right, I just am. And no not becouse Im biger and a human. I am the boss in my dogs eyes - I provide everything in his life - food, play, security, freedom etc.

Can you expand on your thought of earning the right to be the boss please.

[Vickie]

I have been able to increase the duration and distance a little, all well and good in a backyard but how do you get a dog to understand that its NOT ok to bolt to the front door or bolt out into the traffic????

Back to your original question Chezzyr,

I spend quite some time with all of mine, teaching them about gates, doors & backs of cars. I usually teach a "get back", which means take a couple of steps back before I open the gate/door/car. Under no circumstances are any of them to go through without the release word.

I just went through this with Zest, the foster. the very first day, he bolted out the front door. Luckily it was to be with me, not to escape. We worked on it every day (except the car haven;t done that yet) and now he knows like the others that he is to step back when I open the gate/door. And he knows that sometimes he gets to come & sometimes he doesn't. I also proof this on the side gate, where I go out & leave it open a little & pretend to do something around the side. All 4 dogs now know that under no circumstances are they to go through that gate without my release. I don't actually connect it with a "stay" nor use that command.

A few years ago, my hb left our side gate open. I only realised when I saw Noah sitting at the front door (little sh*t). I ran out the front & around to the side & there was my little Zeus, obedient boy that he is, standing at the gate, 2 steps forward, 2 back, over & over again. Of course we should all take every possible precaution, but every bit of training helps.

[chezzyr]

The "boss" thing is interesting. I believe I am the boss because I AM human. In fact at my dog club we were told that we are first and if theres kids in the situation that they are second....and dog is last.

Boss doesnt have to have negative connotations. But the dog has to look up to and respect someone. Also I am the one who "mainly" feeds her, trains her, treats her, brushes her, washes her bedding, does poo patrol, exercises and plays with her

[Kavik]

Something interesting I learned at NDTF

The stay is really stay in the position I put you in until I get back (I agree with sidoney) - so you don't really need the command 'stay' at all! At Elite they never used the stay command, stay in position was an extension of the position itself.

EG 'sit' means sit until I tell you to do something else (another command or release). Sit NEVER means sit and then get up right away!

And if you are using a stay command - like other commands it makes no difference whether you use stay or wait, unless you are using both to try to differentiate whether you are coming back to the dog or calling the dog.

The thing I am finding frustrating with Diesel is finding distractions to train with. He does not move in quiet areas, but does sometimes at training (also stays are done at the end, when he is tired and I think he wants to be finished with training at that point in the night!). I think I also change my body language in class as opposed to when I practice on walks which is making it difficult - I am working on that though(I don't always use the stay command on walks, sometimes just say sit or drop and walk away).

[MonElite]

I believe I am the boss because I AM human. In fact at my dog club we were told that we are first and if theres kids in the situation that they are second....and dog is last.

The fact that you are human doenst make you a boss. If only it was that easy...

Agree - boss doenst have to be a negative word. there are good and bad bosses amongst humans and dogs ...

[Staranais]

The stay is really stay in the position I put you in until I get back (I agree with sidoney) - so you don't really need the command 'stay' at all!

In theory, yes. In practice, at least at my house,... no.

I do the dog training at our house. However, my partner also gives the dog commands, and unforrunately often forgets to formally release him. He just apparently can't remember to do this 100% of the time.

So I do use a "stay" (which my partner is forbidden to use!), when I really need the dog to "stay" in the position for more than 30 seconds.

It's just what works for us.

The thing I am finding frustrating with Diesel is finding distractions to train with.

How bout outside the local vet clinic or pet store? ;)

[Lablover]

Overseas in working competitions it is very common for sit to mean sit etc until otherwise. I have never thought it particularly fair on the dog. I train wait and stay, probably because that is what I have always used!!!

There comes a day when a dog will have high distractions (for example in retrieving trials). If I am convinced the dog knows stay or wait, a large correction will be given, even for one tiny step. I dislike nagging a dog who "does" know better.

[Kavik]

The area I live in is REALLY quiet! Sometimes I might find a few people at a bus stop or in a park, but even outside the vet and shops tends to be quiet. I tend to rely on when we are going out of the area for distractions, but if I am lucky that is once a week (and then those areas are REALLY busy!).

[Staranais]

If I am convinced the dog knows stay or wait, a large correction will be given, even for one tiny step.

Me too, but my dog has dog-aggression issues and is therefore a special case. On the rare occasions he decides to break a group stay, it's not just to play - it's invariably to fight.

So he has learned full well that breaking a formal "stay" command brings the wrath of god down upon him. Might not be PC, but it's something that's necessary for his own safey, and the safety of other dogs in the class.

[Lablover]

I understand. Years ago one of my labs (she was actually my first - very high drive lab, as my husband already had his), broke a stay at 5 months of age and ran onto the road while I was collecting the mail. She gave me such a scare (even though it was a relatively quiet street), I picked her up to the scruff of the neck and really gave her a shake (while her four feet were on the ground of course). She NEVER broke another stay.

[Lablover]

I just wanted to add this particular 5 month lab, was a real confident dog. She obtained her first CD pass at 7 months of age. She loved loved loved training at anything. This is one dog, that never wanted to be a pup, so to speak.

Do not start scruffing your young dog if you feel it will cause flinch patterns, confusion etc.

[chezzyr]

Have to say it was my dog running towards the road that put the wind up me. She had somehow followed me when I went to get the mail, cant remember how she got out actually. But she bolted toward the road (something gave her a fright) and there were cars coming!!! The only thing I could do was yell her name and run as fast as I could back down the driveway. She turned from the road (was just inches away from the curb) and sped down the drive after me. It is because of this incident and the fact that its a through road that the stay/wait thing is so important to me. I get the chills just thinking about it!

[Guest Tess32]

I wouldn't physically correct a collie - even my over-confident exhibitionist flinches if he thinks he's being yelled at.

Nat

[InspectorRex]

Here goes my six pence worth( with some knowledge as trained my Collie to CDX title, former ANKC Trial Judge and current obedeince instructor and handler);

Lesson No 1: the dog must trust your command first . The way I first teach stay to any dog is to use a very frim verbal STAY, take off with the right foot and then stand directly in front of the dog's nose. after 30 secs or so I swivel back to the dog's right hand side( at heel position) and then after a few seconds heaps of praise. far too many people expect to be able to Return Around their dog too early.

When the dog is okay and steady and doing the above then I introduce the Retrun around the dog.

Also the command for stay is exactly that STAY, the command WAIT is for your recalls as you eant your dog to Wait for further instructions for you. NEVER call your dog from a STAY as you are then teaching it to BREAK it's Stay and will confuse the crap out if it.

When the dog is happily staying for up to a minute and then letting you return around it without moving then it is time to introduce Distance between you and the dog. This is when a long lead or extenda lead comes in handy. You leave your dog facing it. You then walk backwards yourself and keep telling your dog to STAY every know and then. when you get about 15 paces away then stay still and look over your dog's head, DO NO make eye contact as this will challenge your dog to BREAK. When you have been standing there for say 2 minutes Return to your dog, saying STAY every now and then until you are in thr At Heel position.

When comfortable with that and your dog is happy too then it is time to drop the lead on the ground BEfore you leave the dog and tell the dog to STAY. This time walk away with your back to your dog BUT every few paces turn around, face your dog and give another STAY command.

It is tedious but I have found this the best methods with my Collies. I would not be taking a dog off lead for Stays until it can easily do the above.

We have to catch up at Lillydale and i will try and show you and Rosie what I mean.even if we can teach her to Sit/Drop at a distance it could save her life.