Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 V: I just don't have your fancy terminology K9: ahhh I make it up as I go along lol... V: can performance be a measure to determine whether drive is elevated through frustration or anticipation. K9: yes, in fact its the only measure... Sometimes, although this may be a little unrealted to your dog, we have a do come here because it wont go forward & bite, sometimes caused by the dog being agitated when wearing a thin collar or check for eg. The dog has limited its drive as it knows going into full drive will earn it a correction, be it automatic due to wrong equipment. I put a 2 inch wide leather collar on or leather harness & bungy. Then I fustrate the dog, it still wont advance until the frustration becomes so high that drive elecates & the dog launches at me into the harness & bungy, when the dog see's no correction was gained, problem goes away. So it took frustration to elevate drive, yes there was howling, barking, spinning on the circle, & finally a lunge, which ended in a bite, this giving the dog the satisfaction it required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 E: I guess I'm close enough to the venue to be able to nick her back home if necessary ..... shrug.gif I'll just mention that she is 12 years old, now though ... K9: thats ok, this is a low low pressure program. If she rewards me by either leaning up aga'inst me, or licking my face, Ill be happy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Yup i agree one thing is easier to notice than a lot of things going on at once now seeings i will be missing your workshop maybe you can give me an idea i have strong prey drive at home sees his toy goes nuts for it will tug fetch kill when out we have great food drive even under pressure but not so good prey drive should i leave the food at home and concentrate on buil;ding prey drive when out as i did with food drive until hes playing really strongly for how long woth the toy or prey item and then go onto to training with it or continue to work on building pprey drive and using food for teaching when out. As for toileting when out for the last month hes happy to do both whereever before he wouldnt which is why i asked about maturity whether that is part of the process. As i have always used both food and toys in training with my other dogs i would like to be able to continue this with him but am thinking that we should leave all training gett him pleying with his toy when out really well then get back to training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 YB: when out we have great food drive even under pressure but not so good prey drive should i leave the food at home and concentrate on buil;ding prey drive when out as i did with food drive until hes playing really strongly for how long woth the toy or prey item and then go onto to training with it or continue to work on building pprey drive and using food for teaching when out. K9: is there a need for prey drive? If your getting good focus with food then unless you have high energy excercises, shouldnt really need prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Highe energy exercises i guess that depends on what you mean i like using both keeps the dog up and excited i like my dogs to work really animated and working from behind its easier to get using prey than food i like really fast go outs i can get that with food but tend to find throwing food can get lost in the grass whereas a toy is easier to use being lazy i love the results i can get with a prey item i can get them with food but prey i think gives a more energetic picture He has a good fast dumbell retrieve at home that needs to be woked on when out and drop on recall i like my dogs to hit the ground fast from a run not this half dawdling stuff you often see in the ring I happy to just use food but am also happy to put the work into getting the most out of his drives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 V: LL, my girl does that too, in agility & on sheep. Since we're making car analogies wink.gif , we call it idling! K9: its not idling, its stopped with one foot on the brake, the other hard on the gas. V: I don't like to let her do it too much & try to keep her focussed on me, but some of it is inevitable. Do you think it affects performance? K9: I think when the dog has not been taught to relax in drive, it deminshes drive, turns on nerves & this causes many types of fallout, weak grips, chewing dumbells etc.. Well there goes my attempt at humour...back to lurking I guess. I'm happy to continue to call it idling & lucky for me, I don't need a strong grip & she will probably never see a dumbell. And Yes Myszka, she moves well at least her body does, even if her feet don't . I'm still interested in your reply LL. My comments simply were that in agility, I don't feel that her performance is worse for her IDLING, in fact so far it seems better. Does your girl do it all the time & do you notice a difference in performance? Vickie, Hi!! All my dogs tremble in excitement to a degree, but this particular bitch literally vibrates, LOL. When she achieves a stable sit, before marks are released etc she stops shaking and is focused on the job at hand. Between retrieves she is fine. I do not think it effects her work. She is a lovely working dog. She gives her all. Her litter brother used to ejaculate at training and at trials, until recently!!!!!! i am so glad that little problem resolved at about 3 years of age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 BTW, when I attended my first herding seminar, there were a couple of tiny working kelpie puppies, furiously circling the duck pen. I laughed and recognised the look and gleam from the puppies eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Feels like I'm off topic now and don't mean to interrupt a good discussion about 'drives' .... but swinging back to the socialisation & neutralisation program ... Hypothetical: You've followed the program to a point that you believe your dog's ready to take out into a lesser controlled environment. An unfamiliar off-leash dog comes along and your dog exhibits the posturing expressive of a dog desiring to engage in strong playful and/or exploritory interaction .... or has perhaps already committed itself to this activity. You acknowledge your handler error, but the fact that your dog has not elected to ignore the other dog, or be satisfied with a precursory sniff, surprises you. What should your reaction in relation to the dog be? Do you ignore the dog's focused attention on the other dog, manually take back control, go home, hit self on head and re-trace the steps in the program? I've read all the posts, but we're into 13 pages. Sorry if this has already been covered - perhaps I've missed it somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Erny, Fancy the cheek of you returning to the topic!!!! I make sure, all early experiences are with dogs I know and trust, so I cannot answer your question in full. I would not make a fuss with a youngster. But from baby puppyhold I have a secret "turn on" word that they cannot resist. (Which I voice cue to, with every baby retrieve). I might run away from the area saying it, and the pup will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) Edited .... 'cause I just caught on to what Lablover was saying. My dumb .. Edited November 3, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zia's Nuthouse Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 And as long as I can call him away from his beloved friends or hated enemies Im happy for him to play. Apart of allowing him play with dogs he knows and likes I have no intentions of ever arriving in a dog park seeing a group of dogs chasing ball and letting him off leash to mingle with the rest. With you on this, Myszka .... Me too Erny and Myszka Took the words right out of my mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Can someone please tell me what we're up to?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Hi Erny That happens especially when loose dogs come racing over to you and then you can do little to stop that If my dog saw another dog and went into i desperately need to play with this dog i and you dont exsist i i would first get rid of the other dog body block chase it off whatever as there is no point trying to get your dogs attaention back while the other dog is trying to jump on its head lol As soon as the dog is heading off to its owner then i also have a big switch on word that means funn will rain from the sky if you play with me run off and get puppys attention back on me have a game and remind myself to be more aware of the surroundings next time. Its hard when you use public places you cant control all the stimuli i find it harder as my eyes get worse to see whats in the area so now i use the fenced oval lock myself in and then the only other dogs i have to worry about are ones i have arranged to be there.. hope that healps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Thanks guys .... I appreciate your responses. I'm aware of the effort that needs to be taken to re-direct focus back to you, but I'm thinking on the "neutralisation" factor. In the hypothetical I set up, obviously neutralisation has not occurred. I'm pondering on whether this is a case of having done everything properly but the dog I have (hypothetically) is genetically engineered to be a "doggy" dog (as I think Kelpie-i referred to) and neutralisation is therefore perhaps less or unlikely to occur, or whether I should go back and spend more time "neutralising". That brings me to wonder when a handler might/should "accept" the level of neutralisation achieved, even if it is less than ideal. And it makes me ponder about how to manage the program with a dog who is genetically engineered to "sniff" and gets his buzz out of that ... eg. Beagle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I'm a bit lost here I think Erny, can I ask a question? How would would a properly "neutralised" dog be expected to behave in the situation you described? Just sit there totally ignoring it, as the other dog jumped on his head? That would surely be pretty hard to train? Or would a neutralised dog still respond to the other dog, but just with a few sniffs or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Hi Amhailte - In my 'imaginary' scenario, I'm not picturing another dog jumping on my dog's head so much as merely being in close enough proximity (with no responsible owner to be able to call it away) for my dog to find it 'engaging' enough to want to interact with it. The fact that my dog wants to interact .... does that mean my dog's not neutralised? Or is it only if my dog won't call away from the other dog that means my dog is not neutralised? (Assuming other recall training is in place.) I've got a feeling I'm getting myself tangled up here .... so no wonder I might be confusing others .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 No, that's pretty much my question too. If a dog is properly neutralised, does that mean he will completely ignore other dogs? Or does he only ignore other dogs when told to do so? Or does he acknowledge them, but just not let them distract him from his work? Perhaps we're confusing each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 YB: Highe energy exercises i guess that depends on what you mean i like using both keeps the dog up and excited i like my dogs to work really animated and working from behind its easier to get using prey than food i like really fast go outs i can get that with food but tend to find throwing food can get lost in the grass whereas a toy is easier to use being lazy i love the results i can get with a prey item i can get them with food but prey i think gives a more energetic picture K9: gotcha, I personally think a dog working in prey is best at everything, but as a general rule, any static excercises, sits drops etc can be great in food drive, send aways, retrieves etc, I would say prey drive is way better. E: You've followed the program to a point that you believe your dog's ready to take out into a lesser controlled environment. An unfamiliar off-leash dog comes along and your dog exhibits the posturing expressive of a dog desiring to engage in strong playful and/or exploritory interaction . K9: you see this doesnt happen, in this program the dog has only ever met dogs that have ignored him or her until now, so your dog wont be looking for play, like your dog wont be looking for play in the park bench, new dogs mean the same. ... or has perhaps already committed itself to this activity. You acknowledge your handler error, but the fact that your dog has not elected to ignore the other dog, or be satisfied with a precursory sniff, surprises you. K9: when your dog returns to you reward... What should your reaction in relation to the dog be? K9: what I expect to see is, dog comes running up, my job is to keep it away from my dog, Im the leader. So I do, say Im surprised, I dont see it I would expect my dog to sniff the other dog & walk away, as soon as I see my dog decide to walk off, I mark with yes, then praise... Do you ignore the dog's focused attention on the other dog, manually take back control, go home, hit self on head and re-trace the steps in the program? K9: if my dog did start to show some interest, I would leash guide the dog back to me, mark when the dog turns & praise when he gets back. E: or whether I should go back and spend more time "neutralising" K9: you have to realise, you can never go back, once your dog has allocated a value, either negative or positive to somethimng, your stuck with it, obedience or desesitization can change what your dog does about that value... E: And it makes me ponder about how to manage the program with a dog who is genetically engineered to "sniff" and gets his buzz out of that ... eg. Beagle. K9: Beagles arent designed to sniff other dogs.. lol.. you dont remove the sniff desire, but reward it with things yopu have the dog sniff... A: Just sit there totally ignoring it, as the other dog jumped on his head? K9: it will be dependant on his nerves & his drives, strong nerved dog with high threshold to defence would just give the other dog a look. My male GSD will do that often, just raise his head as if to say "piss off". E: The fact that my dog wants to interact .... does that mean my dog's not neutralised? K9: yes if he shows other than slight interest... A: If a dog is properly neutralised, does that mean he will completely ignore other dogs? Or does he only ignore other dogs when told to do so? K9: there is no command, dog walks down the street, other dog coming other way, dog will walk by with maybe a 1 second glance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 OK, I get it now, thanks. And this is something you can only do with a puppy, right? That makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: its something you can only do with a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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