Lablover Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) Cringe. We have pig and dog wire around our house block. From time to time, I may be training another dog, and will notice a side glance from the dog. Stamp will be hiding behind a tree, LOL, having jumped the fence!!!!! No wonder my dogs have NEVER been walked off our property. Only driven. Edited March 13, 2006 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 sorry lablover, but I don't understand your problem either. This is a highly active, highly driven 9 month old doberman bitch (her dogs are specifically chosen for their working drive). So it misbehaves? And she posts such episodes? I very much doubt that her 8 year doberman bitch has even thought about raiding the flowergarden for many years and yet has just as much opportunity to do so. The link was posted in case anyone was interested - if you don't like it, disagree with it, or don't believe it that's fine. On the other hand, you could always post her a question - she would be more than happy to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 (edited) The way it will be done is with time & most likely aversives, as suggested in the sheep thread...Why do this? Just a check that my earlier understanding of this topic and our following discussions haven't changed, K9... With reference to the "sheep thread", I suggested that, as the dog who has already pulled down a sheep has received "value", chances are very slim that anything other than aversive training will now be sufficient enough to alter the dog's behaviour. The dog has received "+ value" and there's no going back from that. In your above quote, are you suggesting there IS another way (other than aversive training), or are you saying why have a dog that wants to pull a sheep down in the first place? I'm figuring it's the latter, but I just want to check. Edited March 13, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 pgm, I meant no insult. I am all for looking outside my square, regarding different methods of training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 K9: well thats a big call on your part, having never seen my dogs work or hers I have only your word and her word to go on, and as I don't have any reason to doubt either of you I would find it surprising if either of your or her dogs were any less reliable than you both claim. She is a well respected dog trainer with many years experienced of whom I have often heard high praise from other dog trainers. I have no reason to doubt either of you. K9: she is using the generic program where as Im not... Im happy with the communication skills dogs learn in the 8 weeks they are with litter mates... After that its only reinforcing what they have already learned... I find this a surprising comment. Almost all dogs are kept with littermates until eight weeks old, yet given the absence of social skills that you find in many, many dogs (think of a dog park) it would seem to me that reinforcement of good manners is essential. I then control other meetings.. All meetings between her dogs and the dogs that come in for daycare and boarding are controlled (supervised) by her. Its like this, why would you allow a dog to chase & catch sheep, if you later wanted the dog to ignore sheep & comply with commands when sheep are around? Putting aside the catching part, I can think of many reasons why a sheepdog trainer would allow his dog to chase and herd sheep. Sheep are I imagine pretty high value for a sheepdog, yet a properly trained sheepdog has no difficulty in ignoring sheep and obeying his handler should the trainer wish, even with sheep around. Reading a highly experienced sheepdog trainer I was surprised to learn that sheepdogs are mostly kept offlead at sheepdog dog trials and never run on to the course (with sheep) unless directed. The other thing is, maturity aside, dogs can be trained to be 100% reliable well before 2 years.... Maybe thats why she needs two years? Could you clarify what you mean by maturity aside? Competition OB is a little different as it can be trained through a pattern It can be yes - but her dogs are expected to be reliable in any situation (inside or outside the ring) by two years of age. All of her dogs have a UD by the time they reach 2 years of age (although the Chows she trained took 2 1/2 years apparently.) I might be wrong, but I think even amongst people who train exclusively for competition (which she doesn't) having a UD by two years of age is pretty quick. You can teach a dog to be well mannered & not cause any problems by beating all the drive out of it... I don't know what you mean by that statement. Even dogs trained exclusively for obedience trialling require drive in order to compete successfully at utility level. The above might result in a compliant dog - but I can't see it working for a dog you want competing at utility level. Besides, her dogs are specifically chosen for their high working drive - it wouldn't make much sense for her to then beat the drive out of the dog. She wants a highly driven dog that will be relaxed and good mannered when she requires it as well as having plenty of get up and go when that is required. Instead of looking at what people say, use your own feelings about how a dog is trained, you will see what I mean if you do this... I understand what you mean by neutralization - I can see that it would work to get reliability - but my feelings do not go in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) Putting aside the catching part, I can think of many reasons why a sheepdog trainer would allow his dog to chase and herd sheep. Sheep are I imagine pretty high value for a sheepdog, yet a properly trained sheepdog has no difficulty in ignoring sheep and obeying his handler should the trainer wish, even with sheep around. Reading a highly experienced sheepdog trainer I was surprised to learn that sheepdogs are mostly kept offlead at sheepdog dog trials and never run on to the course (with sheep) unless directed. But the dog in the other thread is not to herd sheep... in fact its not to chase them nor kill them. I dont think sheepdog have a high value for the sheep, I think they consider them as part of an excercise and reward comes from the owner not from the sheep. I of course know hothing about herding and someone correct me if Im wrong please. On the note of the dog leaving the premises etc. Some of you might remember that some person let my dog out some time ago and went missing. I belive that the only reason he was missing from the area is becouse he was hit by the bus and run in panic and got lost. Why do I think that? Becouse I have a gate in my yard that opens onto a golf course. One day I came home from work and the gate was wide open (did I forget to close it the night before? did someone jumped the fence and got out through the gate?), dog didnt go anywhere, although he had an opportunity to, all day. I also walk at night at that golf course and in complete darkenss I might "loose" him - never ever that he was gone for more than few minutes. Will all the possums out there for him to chase....... as seen here he'd rather be at home. pgm Even dogs trained exclusively for obedience trialling require drive in order to compete successfully at utility level. are you talking prey drive? I think you can get a compliant dog with no prey drive, even for utility ring. Edited March 14, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Myszka - that's not how I've seen sheep herding dogs....the sheep are of very high value.... I would love to hear from someone who can comment on this as that is an interesting thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Yes - iteresting Tess. There has to be a higher value coming from the owner (or enough aversive appied) for the dogs to leave the sheep and not chase them for ever. I took a small clip last night of my dog chasing a goose. Goose is of a very high value, but the ball I have is also presious. If I have time Ill upload tomorrow to demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 That's what you would think.....so I am interested. I know that from a herding list I have read they seem to build up the dog's interest in sheep till it peaks, and then they bring them back down again to the point where they will be able to think and listen. However I don't believe it's just an exercise....the dog must have interest in the sheep because not all of herding is about taking directions....does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 they seem to build up the dog's interest in sheep till it peaks, and then they bring them back down again to the point where they will be able to think and listen. in schutzhund some also bring out the highest peak and than "beat" the dog up just slightly to have it under control. From what I understand thats old school and there is a better way. Hopefully someone will enlighten us, either in this subject of somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateshep Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 K9 force wrote K9: never before 18 months, & never without my supervision after that, I say when it starts & stops. If my dog was becoming too focussed on the other dog, I would stop it. Hopefully K9 will be able to reply to this. Is there ever a worry that by not allowing your dog to play with other dogs, they just don't know how to play/ or recognise play behaviour ? A possible(?) downside would maybe be that they mistake the behaviour for something else like a threat ? I hope this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 E: In your above quote, are you suggesting there IS another way (other than aversive training), or are you saying why have a dog that wants to pull a sheep down in the first place?I'm figuring it's the latter, but I just want to check. K9: Yes, like why create problems for yourself... Its easier not to... ********************************************************** PGM: I have only your word and her word to go on K9: It's not really feasable to make a comparison on two dogs based on heresay. PGM: I find this a surprising comment. Almost all dogs are kept with littermates until eight weeks old, yet given the absence of social skills that you find in many, many dogs (think of a dog park) it would seem to me that reinforcement of good manners is essential. K9: take one step further back, packs (wild) would never allow another dog or wolf to enter the pack, play with it or any such thing... Thats in line with my program. Expecting a dog to befriend every dog it comes accross is against that.... All meetings between her dogs and the dogs that come in for daycare and boarding are controlled (supervised) by her K9: supervision isnt control, when you supervise two dogs together, if a fight breaks out, all you can do is alert the media (in other words REACT). Then its too late... I find it surprising that you are defending what another trainer does from nothimng more than an internet blog. Maybe it would be worthwhile seeing her dogs or raising a few in her method compared to mine... Putting aside the catching part, I can think of many reasons why a sheepdog trainer would allow his dog to chase and herd sheep. K9: yes but we arent talking about a sheepdog trainer, I may as well say it's fine for dogs to bite people.... Sheepdog trainers dont allow their dogs to chase sheep uncontrolled... Other wise they wouldnt be sheepdog trainers. Sheep are I imagine pretty high value for a sheepdog, yet a properly trained sheepdog has no difficulty in ignoring sheep and obeying his handler should the trainer wish, even with sheep around. K9: you will find that the reward (sheep) is controlled by the trainer... Could you clarify what you mean by maturity aside? K9: sure, many people state that you cant have Personal Prot dog ready in under 2 - 3 years, not all, many. I have trained all the moves & had a dog woprking perfectly by 12 months. I wouldnt deploy that dog until it reaches mental maturity though.. Many also state that you wont get a reliable SAR dog ready before 4 - 5 years, this I have heard around the world. SARDOG has gained reliability way before that... It can be yes - but her dogs are expected to be reliable in any situation (inside or outside the ring) by two years of age. K9: Expectations are rarely met... Maybe you would benefit by going to a few comp dogs homes... I have seen dogs that score high in the ring have no social skills or obedience outside the ring & pattern... All of her dogs have a UD by the time they reach 2 years of age (although the Chows she trained took 2 1/2 years apparently.) I might be wrong, but I think even amongst people who train exclusively for competition (which she doesn't) having a UD by two years of age is pretty quick. K9: ALl of the dogs she has ever had, or all of the dogs she has now... Because people can easily wash dogs that wont work... Again, I cant debate with you on her training methods... I don't know what you mean by that statement. Even dogs trained exclusively for obedience trialling require drive in order to compete successfully at utility level. K9: No they do not... Thats a proven fact... The above might result in a compliant dog - but I can't see it working for a dog you want competing at utility level. K9: look around a lil more... Even in the latest SchH Nats here, [people commented on the dogs that were working in drive compared to the ones that were working in avoidance... Drive in ob is a relatively new addition... Besides, her dogs are specifically chosen for their high working drive - it wouldn't make much sense for her to then beat the drive out of the dog. K9: actually it makes no sense, but I still see it daily... The method that you use does not allow for drive, a dog making its own decisions is outside of the Koehler Regime... I understand what you mean by neutralization - I can see that it would work to get reliability - but my feelings do not go in this way. K9: & thats fine, no one is attempting to say that this is the only way, in fact its my way... Feelings come from experience & knowledge, the more you get, often the more your feelings change... KS: Is there ever a worry that by not allowing your dog to play with other dogs, they just don't know how to play/ or recognise play behaviour ? A possible(?) downside would maybe be that they mistake the behaviour for something else like a threat ? K9: no they are taught to return to the handler when they arent sure of the intentions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I've got a similar question to Kateshep (so I may get the same answer!?) My aim is to have my dog comfortable in as many situations as possible that we may find ourselves in - and in this I include situations that cannot be controlled or expected, as they occur in the world whether we like it or not. Some things include (but are not limited to) - children coming up suddenly and patting the dog, having a dog suddenly come from around the corner, offlead dogs running up to yours, offlead dogs running up and barking, children running, crowds of people. Like Kateshep I wonder that if you don't let your pup meet other friendly dogs and be patted by people (maybe even hugged by kids) - how will your dog cope with something like that happening later on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) K9 K9: look around a lil more... Even in the latest SchH Nats here, [people commented on the dogs that were working in drive compared to the ones that were working in avoidance...Drive in ob is a relatively new addition... Yes, Kavik and I were at the sch nationals and it was obvious which dog was trained in prey drive and which one in aviodance. As to drive in obiedience doing some heelwork - IMHO very nice work.Jazz is 3yo and Erika is not a dog trainer, but check out all the titles this dog already has. For those that know me and some of the dogs I talk about - Jazz is a litter sister to "my"Xena that I had with me at the K9's handlers workshop, and Kea Also in regards to dogs that have UD titles but no manners at home. I have had a CDX dog visiting not that long ago at my place. Jumped on the kitchen bench in attempt to steal food. 2.5 yo. Pulled on lead on the walk to the park, not drastic but it did. Got up on the couch, was told off , got off and during the day got up on the couch several times. Lovely dog and overall a great pet, but CDX in the ring hasnt got a lot to do with manners at home. Edited March 14, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 i didnt see al the dogs compete but from what i seen there was only 2 dogs trained in avoidance a mal and a german Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Jeff - GSD was a dead give away when it rolled on its back when the owner tried to put the leash back on after it finished... Some things include (but are not limited to) - children coming up suddenly and patting the dog, having a dog suddenly come from around the corner, offlead dogs running up to yours, offlead dogs running up and barking, children running, crowds of people.Like Kateshep I wonder that if you don't let your pup meet other friendly dogs and be patted by people (maybe even hugged by kids) - how will your dog cope with something like that happening later on? Ill try to have a crack at this question. Neutralisation wuldnt mean locking the dog up in the yard and not letting it see the world. The dog would have been taken out and exposed to various stimuli (crowd, kids, dogs) and guided back to the owner (where the satisfaction comes from) That would expose the dog to various scenarios but would not assign any value to the scenario apart from reinforcing that all goodness comes form the owner. How am I doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 But what about the physical side of things? Being hugged by kids for eg - if a dog is not used to people doing this isn't it going to be uncomfortable with the situation? Don't you want the dog to be used to being handled eg vet? And all this bringing the dog back to owner and reinforcing all things come from the owner - doesn't that impose a lot of control on the dog (as against letting it go up to people, have a wander etc)? Just trying to sort it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) Kavik if you set it up and a dog goes up to a person and the person doesnt pet it... Im guessing if you set it up enough times the dog will not go to people for pets as it will think it wont get them. I handled K9s male some time ago I gave him pets (Kayne that is, not K9) stroke his ears, rubbed his back etc. No worries, he didnt ask for more, nor moved away. I guess it was as - yeah whatever, wanna scratch do it, dont want, fine as well. Those that were at the last workshop all commented on Xena that followed me like a shadow (not my dog BTW) and she didnt really go to anyone for pets, wasnt bothered about other dogs or people. That is a dog that was somewhat (big somewhat) brought up in that method. You want to pet her she will let you, and with time will seek more, but not like my Rex that will demand attention, unless told to go away. Edited March 14, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 (edited) K: Like Kateshep I wonder that if you don't let your pup meet other friendly dogs and be patted by people (maybe even hugged by kids) - how will your dog cope with something like that happening later on? K9: by returning to the handler... A dog being surprised will not rely on socialisation as much as its nerves.. But what about the physical side of things? Being hugged by kids for eg - if a dog is not used to people doing this isn't it going to be uncomfortable with the situation? K9: this has to do with nerves... If the dog is neutral to kids, hugs etc no probs... Kids hug my dogs, my 2yold climbs all over them, feeds them etc, no probs... Nerves trigger defensive drives.. Don't you want the dog to be used to being handled eg vet? K9: No, my males is 9 yo old almost been to vet about 4 times... Bitch 5 yo, vet about 4 times... And all this bringing the dog back to owner and reinforcing all things come from the owner - doesn't that impose a lot of control on the dog (as against letting it go up to people, have a wander etc)? K9: the dog chooses to come back... Next time you come here you can rough handle & hug my dogs all you like, see what they do. They will just look at you. Then walk away... When others pat them, they will take it, but dont kick into pack drive for anyone but me.... Edited March 14, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I guess K9 you are luckier with the vet thing than me Diesel is 2 and been to the vet more times than I care to think about Having worked at the vet, it is much easier for everyone if the dog is not worried about the handling etc for procedures, taking blood etc. Especially if the dog is big! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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