Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Sunny ;) I only continue posting because of my faith in my dogs!...in the human world...I am the only one who can give them a voice! some may accuse me of antromorphising....but I can honestly state, that if it wasn't for daim's; I wouldn't be here!...he supported me through the hardest times of my life....and Zillah is carrying on in his tradition! dogs to me are not possesions, nor are they tools...they are personalities and entities in their own right, and have so much to offer us a a human race being responsible for a dog is just like being responsible for a child....and the rewards at the end are just as apt! :D however, I do appreciate that dogs are not "human" (no matter how much dobe's think they are! ) & so therefore, I try to learn their language as much as I try to teach them mine :D & somehow...we meet in the middle & establish a working relationship which is based on trust; caring & respect...is that something I should be villified for? excuse my arrogance..but I think not! I end up with dogs that observe human behavioural constraints, but also are free to be dogs when they require it....and I respect that! It hurts when people make assumptions about myself & my dogs simply because I employ a different strategy to them...I say each to their own..what ever works for you...except I am offering a different perspective & approach...which has worked for me...and as a result I feel that I have been judged unfairly. I'm not trying to tell anyone HOW to do things...just offering my own experiences in alternative ways of doing things.....so why does that single me out as a pariah...or more bluntly a "troll" and I do question...that is my way of learning!....& my mind is always open! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I don't know Aus, I'm a know nothing newbie in the training forum I've been happy my dog knows come/sit/stay/drop and his "place" but now want to further and refine my skills and knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 He has been a very naughty boy on lead lately too. Funnily enough since I booked a lesson with K9 Perhaps I have subconsciously 'laid off' until I get my lesson and he somehow knows that Little mongrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 sunny...from experience...if you give dobe's an inch they will take 5 miles!!! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Yep he proves that theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I'm not a dogmatic person (no pun intended) & am open to any ideas & theories which enhance the training & wellbeing of dogs .... Hi Aus I'm really sorry that you feel that I was stoning you, that was truely not my intention, I was just trying to say that I believe you don't need to go to the extremes you were saying you need to go to with a Dobe to gain leadership over them or any breed. One of the things I have found with training in drive is that if you set the training plan up well you shouldn't need to use many verbal or physical corrections. I am certainly not saying you are wrong, just trying to say there is another way to achieve what you have achieved but obviously not doing a very good job. Not everyone here trains using drive. I have been what I call a crossover trainer for about 14yrs and you know what they say about "changed" people, they are the worst cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 thanks M-J ..I do use drive training, but i also incorporate other drives, simply because i have found that the dobe's I have worked with have been so prey motivated, that I had to develope a different way to gain their attention ..if i kept them in prey drive all the time..I would have no hope of controlling them! ..instead, I have varied my training routine to include all aspects of the dog's natural instincts...and this has worked well for me! & I've ended up with well trained/socialised & polite dogs (if still a bit sooky! ) so I can't say that I am unhappy with the results! ..I do speak better in animal language than human language, so I suppose i have got a couple of people offside with how I've expressed myself.....but it has always been my intention to express the dog's point of view rather than what we expect as humans. but in saying that; I don't deminish the role that we humans have to play as pack leaders...I believe this is vitally crucial to the dog's welfare!...and sadly, for it's own protection! I just wish people could accept me on face value, just like my dogs do..there are no hidden adgendas...I hold no hostility to anyone....I just want people to undersatand dogs as dogs, not surrogate humans! :D In love & peace...Aus ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I think what confused people earlier was when you said you did basically the same thing as K9 Force - but then described methods that didn't seem very similar to what he describes when he posts. JMO. Anyway before I post, I'll just say that I'm not trying to stone you either - in fact I think it's nice to have different experiences and opinions being shared on the boards. ;) ..I do use drive training, but i also incorporate other drives, simply because i have found that the dobe's I have worked with have been so prey motivated, that I had to develope a different way to gain their attention ..if i kept them in prey drive all the time..I would have no hope of controlling them! So just as an aside to what you said above, I think most people here who use (or try to use) prey drive do it because their dogs are very prey motivated, therefore making prey drive a good way to keep their attention - they find that working their dogs in prey drive is a very good way of controlling them. Think of it like this. My stafford is reasonably prey motivated. A few years ago when I first adopted him, if you released him in a field with ducks in it, he'd be gone like the wind! I found that I couldn't stop this behaviour using food rewards or by using praise/affection. So that's an example of prey drive working as a distraction. Other motivators, drives and rewards just couldn't compete when my stafford flipped into prey around those ducks. So now I'm trying to train him to accept that tugtoys are prey items too, and trying to convince him that they are just as exciting as ducks. The point being that if my staff wants to earn the tug toy as much as he wants to chase ducks, then when I control the toy I also control the dog. He'll do whatever I ask in order to earn it (even "calm" behaviours such as down or stay or 'leave the ducks alone!'), since his tugtoy is so motivating to him. That's prey drive being used as a way to gain and keep attention, even in the presence of other distractions. And I think that's basically what most people here are trying to do. Just my thoughts - and I'm by no means an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I spend alot of yesterday reading this whole thread, some great great info here, I am going to start foundations with my dogs I bought a toy each today (tennis ball and rope tug toys, blue for ed and red for molly) because from what I understand they can't share them or they will lose as much effect Just a quick question, if I am to train both dogs, when I do the tie out, where will the other dog preferably be? Inside where they can see, or somewhere they can't see what I am doing with the other dog? Would it be a good idea to have me with Ed in the backyard and OH with Molly over the other side of the house in the run? What are the drawbacks with the dogs having 2 handlers? Should the handler be irrelevant because the toy is the motivation? I was watching a guy at agility today and he had a tennis ball in his hand, he would ask the dog to do 2 or 3 pieces and then he would throw the ball for the dog, oce foundations have been set, this is the idea? Or to have the tug in a particualr place and come back to it? Or a combination? (I am guessing combination!) Thanks heaps Oh and 1 more, what happens if the tug gets lost or something? Everything starts again (foundations)? Or would a similar toy be accepted by the dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 KS: What do use as a prey item for young puppies ? I find with my 7mnth old gsd pup though she shows good prey drive is kinda clumsy going after the ball when building drive ?? (but finds it really easy to go after a rag).. compared to my 3yr old gsd X and his prey is not as strong as hers . K9: Rags are a good start for a ''''baby puppy", seven weeks to 12 weeks, but then progress onot a bite roll or small orbee ball, the dog being clumsy with it will go away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 A: I seem to be copping a caning here, just because I employ a variety of methods to train my dogs....I'm not saying that other's methods are inferior or anything, just saying that I use slightly different methods & get a great result too. The weird thing is, that much of what I do incorporates what others reccomend, but I also do some other things...which seems to draw condemnation, l feel like I'm being told there is only one right way....but I thought it was the end result that was the important thing (as long as no cruelty is involved to get it) and I do get the results...so why am I being slammed? K9: trust me, your not being slammed. I think that you have a method thats somewhere near opposite mine, & thats perfectly ok.. You have to understand people are trying to learn from this forum, & when you post things that are direct opposite to mine, then say they are the same or similar, they will bring confusion. & the people who have got results using my methods can clearly see that there is a large difference, & I guess this is frustrating to them... The idea is use what ever you like, good work on getting the results you have... But the terms your using & descriptions you give are all back to front, & if your not teaching anyone, thats ok too, it took me a long while to be able to teach someone what I know, long time after getting the results with many dogs... Example: AUS: I can even walk out of the room & he won't eat until given the release...but he certainly appears to remain in prey drive, as the drool & looking at the bowl don't stop until I return,K9 this not prey drive, its food drive, unless the bowl is scooting around the floor... Aus: I also don't seem to have the problems that K9 said I would have if I trained the way I do....Daim's would recall with hand signals over a football field, so the 30 metre example he gave that would result in my dog not responding, simply wasn't true. K9: Its not so much the problems you will have, its the problemsyou can have, I am talking about thousands of dogs going through training... Some are easier than others, some people die from smoking, others do not.. The amount of time training can also be increased, & you must consider that the recall excercise isnt terribly complicated, when you add casts, seek backs & many other things, you need a very clear headed dog, so the drive reward must be clear... So if you had tried to extend your training you may have had problems.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 SM: Just a quick question, if I am to train both dogs, when I do the tie out, where will the other dog preferably be? Inside where they can see, or somewhere they can't see what I am doing with the other dog? Would it be a good idea to have me with Ed in the backyard and OH with Molly over the other side of the house in the run? K9: Ideally, one dog in training area, thats the best way to start, trained dog cant hear or see others... SM: What are the drawbacks with the dogs having 2 handlers? Should the handler be irrelevant because the toy is the motivation? K9: Two handlers will have different requirements for the dogs to win the item, this can make the dog confused. The dog will become locked to the handler that does this work... SM: I was watching a guy at agility today and he had a tennis ball in his hand, he would ask the dog to do 2 or 3 pieces and then he would throw the ball for the dog, oce foundations have been set, this is the idea? Or to have the tug in a particualr place and come back to it? Or a combination? (I am guessing combination!) K9: This isnt training in drive the way I do it, this is called using a drive as a motivator, I havent found this to be the best method.. SM: Oh and 1 more, what happens if the tug gets lost or something? Everything starts again (foundations)? Or would a similar toy be accepted by the dog? K9: transferring to a new toy isnt hard once foundation is done, just swap & the dog will catch up, its best to chose a replaceable toy though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Thanks heaps for that Gives me lots to start with, I will have to make a decision with my dogs too, whether or not to let go of one! lol and let OH take one on for training Problem being OH is interested to begin with but interest levels drop and I end up taking over, ie I started obedience with Eddie, then when we got Molly, OH would take her to class, but he bored of it, and got very slack with her so he has been my official dog holder for the last few months while I alternate between them Just this week he has become interested again as I have started agility with Eddie, so he has decided he will do it with Molly, but my logic is that if he is to do agility with her, he will need to do obedience and everything as well or she will consider me to be the boring trainer and him the exciting one! I just don't know if I'm too selfish to let one of them go, they both have such great qualities hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 (edited) K9: This isnt training in drive the way I do it, this is called using a drive as a motivator, I havent found this to be the best method.. Would you clarify this? And the difference to how you would do it? I am thinking it's because the dog can see the ball while it's working, is that right? Rather than having it hidden? So the sight of the ball motivates the dog rather than a drive command? Thanks. my logic is that if he is to do agility with her, he will need to do obedience and everything as well or she will consider me to be the boring trainer and him the exciting one IMO it's more to do with the trainer than the activity. I could not count the number of bored dogs I have seen in agility, because the handler makes it that way. Edited September 18, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 (edited) IMO it's more to do with the trainer than the activity. I could not count the number of bored dogs I have seen in agility, because the handler makes it that way. True, I think (know) that the main problem with our obedience is me thinking its boring!!! I will train myself to think positively, it will be fun! Edited September 18, 2006 by shoemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 SM: Gives me lots to start with, I will have to make a decision with my dogs too, whether or not to let go of one! lol and let OH take one on for training Being in Vic you would benefit from one of the Training in drive workshop I am having this November.. One is sold out, one still has places... S: Would you clarify this? And the difference to how you would do it? K9: sure, many people have the dog work an ob routine & THEN get out a tug toy etc, this is rewarding to the dog but it isnt working the dog in drive... I build drive with the toy, then get the ob, then give the reward, the dog is in drive all of the time... S: I am thinking it's because the dog can see the ball while it's working, is that right? Rather than having it hidden? So the sight of the ball motivates the dog rather than a drive command? K9: no the ball goes out of site in the end too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Yeah I wanted to go to your workshop but its the one that is the week we are in south australia though we may come home in time, what is the date of the one that still has places? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I build drive with the toy, then get the ob, then give the reward, the dog is in drive all of the time... Yes, I understand that, but didn't you say that you can get drive in a trained dog with a drive command? Without showing the toy? If the dog knows that it's going to get toy at the end of the routine, surely it will be in drive to get that toy, even if it doesn't see it? (Which anyway is not the case if the person is running with the ball in the hand.) Otherwise not sure how running with a ball in the hand and then throwing it is different to what you are describing. How is "motivating with the toy" different to "building drive with the toy"? Are you referring to the specific drive-building movement? In that case I'm not sure where using a command to put the dog into drive comes in, without showing/drive building with the toy first, and how "motivating with the toy" is not using drive. K9: no the ball goes out of site in the end too... Are you here referring to using a drive command rather than drive building with the toy to put the dog into drive? I just can't conceptualise the difference that you refer to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 SM: Yeah I wanted to go to your workshop but its the one that is the week we are in south australia though we may come home in time, what is the date of the one that still has places? K9: I believe the 4 Paws one on the 19th is full, the Ballarat one 17th still has a place or two.. S: Yes, I understand that, but didn't you say that you can get drive in a trained dog with a drive command? Without showing the toy? If the dog knows that it's going to get toy at the end of the routine, surely it will be in drive to get that toy, even if it doesn't see it? (Which anyway is not the case if the person is running with the ball in the hand.) K9: yes, but your hoping the dog will trigger into enough drive withoutthe need for drive building, even in the early stage... S: Otherwise not sure how running with a ball in the hand and then throwing it is different to what you are describing. How is "motivating with the toy" different to "building drive with the toy"? Are you referring to the specific drive-building movement? In that case I'm not sure where using a command to put the dog into drive comes in, without showing/drive building with the toy first, and how "motivating with the toy" is not using drive. K9: Firstly throwing the ball is throwing away the reward, the other differences are too techical to explain here... S: Are you here referring to using a drive command rather than drive building with the toy to put the dog into drive? K9': yes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Oh boo hoo :D Can't do that date Can't you just move to vic?!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now