Steve K9Pro Posted September 13, 2006 Author Share Posted September 13, 2006 A: WOOHOO!!!!! I have just read all 27 pages of this thread! (come on someone...give me an award! ) K9: if you read all 27 pages, then you have the reward... :p A: my first Dobe (PB) Daim's was highly prey driven, however I trained him out of that through pack drive...and ended up with a very reliable, trustworthy, but fearsome dog when he really had to be....he was exactlly the type of dog I wanted, K9: see we are already starting with a problem, the positive way to use pack drive is through leadership & that wont slow or deminish prey drive, the negative way to use pack drive is to dominate the animal & that will... A: I'm the sort of person who is wiling to experiment though, so this time with Zillah (16 mth old PB dobe rescue dog) I'm giving your training methods a go... K9: Im sure after Myszka showed you her video, thats what you said you do? A: my big question is...both Daim's and zillah show very high prey drive (probably due to their breeding ) as both dogs are/were primarily being trained as companion dogs....I do not want to encourage the natural guarding instinct beyond property and personal protection. K9: ok, but guarding isnt done in prey drive... A: my dogs in pack drive & I am alpha!...this seems to achieve good results without disrupting the natural prey drive....so in your experience...am I doing the wrong thing? K9: from what I can see you havent grasped the use of drive yet. Trying to deminish high prey drive will cause fallout, an undesireable result of training... You cant extinguish nature, you need to work with it, or satisfy it some other way or you will lose reliability... A: Zillah is training up very fast and already treats me as alpha...including cleanining all my toes, ears etc & following me around like a brown shadow ..he also looks straight to me for conformation on command as to how he will respond to prey temptations and will hold a stay until I release him (all in 4 weeks of training) his stay around food results in a puddle of drool on the carpet! hahahahaa! K9: if you create to much control around you, it will cost you drive close, up, I call this the circle of control & it kills reliability off leash... A: I also tend to train in "dog language" first (as I was trrained by a very wise bitch), then verbal, then visual...Zillah already responds to all modes of "correction & praise" K9: there are no corrections as such in prey drive training at this level... A: so where I'm leading...is that I have a dog that has a very high prey drive which I can control in controlled situations (ie: home & backyard) via pack drive. but...am I actually making things hard for myself down the track because I am actively controlling the prey drive. K9: yes you are, because I teach the dog to control itself, not me, if I am the controlling factor & I add 30 metres of distance from the dog to me, control is gone, the dog will self reward by chasing prey that is not under your control... A: I won't play tug of war with zillah...he releases & he gets a reward, he doesn't and he gets a growl.. K9: this is another mistake, growling is a verbal correction, corrections deminish drive... A: I actively train against the "bite" (mostly due to the negative press that dobe's receive) and ask for the release each time. A mouthing, results in a growl from me!....this is the way I trained Daims, and he would only ever flip into attack mode when I was personally being threatened, otherwise, he would put up with the worst manners that could possibly be displayed. I could also call him off with one command, if the threat retreated..which was just as I wanted him. K9: it is too complicated to explain the problems with what you have said here, but the above is not the way I train a protection dog. I am not sure you know exactly what a manstopper is... A: so I suppose my question is twofold....am I training the "wrong" way...and can the same results be achieved another way that is demostrabably superior? K9: yes, & yes. A: from what I understand from reading these threads, is that I do train in prey mode, but I also add pack mode to the training so that I have total control over my dogs. believe me, I'm not arguing against prey drive training, I'm just questioning it's appropriatness in a breed that shows highly developed prey drive as instinctual & curbing that so that it doesn't become a liability & just pointing out IMH experience, that pack taraining can providew that balance K9: some people like to use different rewards, in other words some pack, or some food as well as prey. The people who dont know think this works, they will find out in due course they have steered off course & it will cost them dearly. The more rewards you offer, the more confusing it is for the dog... The clear headed dog that they could have had will have turned into one that is often confused, & when confused dogs default to genetic behaviour, chase what is in front of them, meaning training & reliability goes out the window... A: Kavik I understand what you are saying...but I'm working with dobermanns...they have an inbred stong prey drive....very strong K9: you need to understand that Kavik is talking about a Kelpie, bred more for prey drive than Dobes... You also need to get out of the Breed mentality, thinking one breed is this or that... Its not fact, its fiction. I have tested probably two thousand Dobes in the past 3 years for personal protection abilities, 99% were hopeless. This is not just Dobes, same with GSDs, not as high, but over 75%, much liuke many breeds these days. Being Black & Brown or Black & Gold isnt a guaranteed great dog... A: .So what I'm trying to get at is that I am working from the opposite direction...most people want to increase prey drive in their dogs....but when you're dealing with a working dobermann...this is not something you want to encourage...it's already there in abundance ...the secret is harnessing this drive via pack leadership, so that you control those drives and therefore create a dog which is trustworthy in any situation K9: this is completely false. A: Daim's could make that distinction...he could tell whether the threat needed to a) be ignored b) be played with) c) stirred up) or D) taken down. K9: I really mean no offence but you have totally miss read what is happening, your dog was reading your body language, thats all.. He couldnt "tell"... A: .the one constant was pack leadership...I was always his alpha...even when he tried to challenge me K9: dogs dont challenge leaders, they challenge equals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 I am such a loser this would have to be the only statement in this thread I fully understand : K9: dogs dont challenge leaders, they challenge equals... But hey, I guess we all have to start somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 2000 dobes in 3 yrs, thats 2 a day the 99% is probably right though their is as much variation within a breed as there is between breeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 13, 2006 Author Share Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) K9: I just went to my computer for verification of pass / fail temp test for personal protection law enf. Im not good with large numbers but I was almost correct 86.74% of all of the dogs I have seen in the past 8 years, (havent got computer records before that) failed Breed break up Dobe 96.1% GSD 76% Rott 79% Malanois 84% Other breeds combined 98.6% Total dogs in report 3744. There have been quite a few that I havent tested but my gut tells me they wouldnt pass anyway... It takes quite a dog to pass this test.. NB: Last time I ran this report was a year ago, it hasnt changed much.. Edited September 13, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 K9 How many of each breed? or % of each breed in the test? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 13, 2006 Author Share Posted September 13, 2006 Thats a whole nuther report, have to figure that one out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Hi Aus Aus wrote: the exceptions being, that I don't use tie backs...my dogs tie up fine...& just having the food in front of them & my control is enough to keep them in drive. M-J wrote: From my understanding of the TOT the tie back is to increase the dogs frustration, therefore increase the natural drive the dog already has, and it also sets it up to succeed to build reliability at the same time....... I could be wrong? Aus wrote: & my alpha status, I achieve the same way a dog would....I lay them down & growl and bite the scruff if necesssary.....then hold them in a drop stay, for however long it takes It only takes me one challenge..(which I have to win of course) and they then look to me as alpha & this is reinforced by feeding regimes, reward allocation & effective growls when behaviour oversteps the mark acceptable. M-J wrote: I'm not absolutely certain on what you call Alpha status but in this situation I would say being able to put the dogs food down and not have it take it until released by me, while at a distance from the bowl, is demonstrating Alpha status, maybe you have other thoughts. I have achieved this with not one growl or verbal correction, not one hand on his body, no tie back and my Dobe was a rescue that had had 4 homes in 12 mths so he wasn't a walk in the park to deal with when he first came here and he does have a little rank drive. He also has a high food drive and will sit there like yours drool and blow bubbles, but so far (8mths) he has been 100 percent reliable as I have set him up to be through training in drive, not by breaking it. So because of this I'm not absolutely certain that generally Dobes really do need your Alpha training to make them reliable companion dogs. I believe training in drive by controlling resourses does make you Alpha...again just an opinion, not saying I'm right. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 A: Aus wrote:the exceptions being, that I don't use tie backs...my dogs tie up fine...& just having the food in front of them & my control is enough to keep them in drive. K9: the way your doing it, your controlling, limiting/ deminishing your dogs drive... The tie out shows your dog your not the one holding it back, it also teaches the dog that drive peak isnt the answer, & that using your brain to think is. It creates a smart dog... You ordering your dog to stay back lets you do the thinking for the dog.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Hi k9 what age is the best to start a training in drive program Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 K9: seven weeks is ideal, any time is "possible". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 cool have sent you an email Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Breed break upDobe 96.1% GSD 76% Rott 79% Malanois 84% Other breeds combined 98.6% Total dogs in report 3744. There have been quite a few that I havent tested but my gut tells me they wouldnt pass anyway... It takes quite a dog to pass this test.. NB: Last time I ran this report was a year ago, it hasnt changed much.. Other breeds combined? How many labradors? I too have been told of the high failure rate, and by crickey that does not include health. Not many dogs left after all the tests!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 K9: very few people bring Labs for Personal Protection Evaluations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateshep Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 (edited) K9: seven weeks is ideal, any time is "possible What do use as a prey item for young puppies ? I find with my 7mnth old gsd pup though she shows good prey drive is kinda clumsy going after the ball when building drive ?? (but finds it really easy to go after a rag).. compared to my 3yr old gsd X and his prey is not as strong as hers . Edited September 15, 2006 by kateshep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Hi Aus Aus wrote: the exceptions being, that I don't use tie backs...my dogs tie up fine...& just having the food in front of them & my control is enough to keep them in drive. M-J wrote: From my understanding of the TOT the tie back is to increase the dogs frustration, therefore increase the natural drive the dog already has, and it also sets it up to succeed to build reliability at the same time....... I could be wrong? Aus wrote: & my alpha status, I achieve the same way a dog would....I lay them down & growl and bite the scruff if necesssary.....then hold them in a drop stay, for however long it takes It only takes me one challenge..(which I have to win of course) and they then look to me as alpha & this is reinforced by feeding regimes, reward allocation & effective growls when behaviour oversteps the mark acceptable. M-J wrote: I'm not absolutely certain on what you call Alpha status but in this situation I would say being able to put the dogs food down and not have it take it until released by me, while at a distance from the bowl, is demonstrating Alpha status, maybe you have other thoughts. I have achieved this with not one growl or verbal correction, not one hand on his body, no tie back and my Dobe was a rescue that had had 4 homes in 12 mths so he wasn't a walk in the park to deal with when he first came here and he does have a little rank drive. He also has a high food drive and will sit there like yours drool and blow bubbles, but so far (8mths) he has been 100 percent reliable as I have set him up to be through training in drive, not by breaking it. So because of this I'm not absolutely certain that generally Dobes really do need your Alpha training to make them reliable companion dogs. I believe training in drive by controlling resourses does make you Alpha...again just an opinion, not saying I'm right. cheers M-J Hi M-J whenI say control...I'm simply saying that I havent given a release to eat....and I don't think his prey drive is diminishing if you go by the saturated carpet! I can walk out of the room, do whatever & he wont touch it until I say "ok" & hey, that's how I want it! I seem to be copping a caning here, just because I employ a variety of methods to train my dogs....I'm not saying that other's methods are inferior or anything, just saying that I use slightly different methods & get a great result too. The weird thing is, that much of what I do incorporates what others reccomend, but I also do some other things...which seems to draw condemnation, l feel like I'm being told there is only one right way....but I thought it was the end result that was the important thing (as long as no cruelty is involved to get it) and I do get the results...so why am I being slammed? the only reason I employed the (female alpha technique) as taught to me by a bitch correcting her pups...was because the younger dog was challenging my older dog...& I needed the younger dog to listen to me quickly before a trip to the vets was necessary! one challenge like this & the dog gets it straight away...it's his language of course....& it works...what can I say...it works, first time. Dogs do challenge older dogs for pack status if they think they can get away with it....as soon as they are secure of their place in the pack...they're fine....sorry, but I tend to speak animal language better than I do human sometimes....maybe that's why I don't come across clearly sometimes... anyway...if there's only one right way on this board...then I just stick out of any further conversations...that seems to be the simplest way to avoid a stoning :p cheers Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) I don't think anyone is saying what you are doing is wrong Just that from what you write you seem to be diminishing your dog's prey drive not utilising it. Which is only a problem if you want to use prey drive for motivating your dog. On a side note I do the TOT with Diesel and Kaos, works really well But I tried it with Zoe who is 7 and who I have taught to sit for her food not through TOT (using control). And I couldn't get it to work she just sat as usual out of drive - again too much control work. So there are many means to an end but what you are doing is not using drive to do so. EFS Edited September 16, 2006 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 M-J wrote:I'm not absolutely certain on what you call Alpha status but in this situation I would say being able to put the dogs food down and not have it take it until released by me, while at a distance from the bowl, is demonstrating Alpha status, maybe you have other thoughts. cheers M-J well this is what I do....and have the same result...without correction & breaking...like I said before..I can even walk out of the room & he won't eat until given the release...but he certainly appears to remain in prey drive, as the drool & looking at the bowl don't stop until I return , he'll give me a quick eye contact (as if to ask please?) and then he gets the release.so if you describe that as ALPHA status...then ....perhaps my dog also sees me as ALPHA? ;) I also don't seem to have the problems that K9 said I would have if I trained the way I do....Daim's would recall with hand signals over a football field, so the 30 metre example he gave that would result in my dog not responding, simply wasn't true. I'm not saying that I don't harness prey drive...I do incorporate alot of it, but I also employ pack drive, and talk to my dogs the way their dam would have. Dam's do use growls as corrections to train their pups, as do dogs in a pack situation...and a correction can be a subtle as a look or a showing of teeth ...corrections are only used in the initial training phases to establish pack leadership....then rewards for desired behaviour become the real focus...although they are also used right from the start! I actually didn't have to teach Zillah the sit stay for food....Daim's taught him that by example...& zillah worked it out straight away (never seen that before!!! blew me away!) I'm just feeling that each time I share my experiences....I'm jumped on, and have the suggestion thrown at me that my dogs will not respond in the future...well Daim's was almost 11 years old when he died, & I had no problems...so I'm not sure when those future problems were meant to begin? Seeing as the average life span for dobe's is about 9 yrs (although I have met one that was 15!!!!!) I don't know...maybe he's giving God a real hard time at the moment! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) Aus he certainly appears to remain in prey drive, as the drool & looking at the bowl don't stop until I return The thing is that he isnt in prey drive there he is in food drive. Prey is a desire to chase and catch, the food isnt moving so he isnt in prey drive. Aus he'll give me a quick eye contact (as if to ask please?) and then he gets the release. That is great. Aus Daim's would recall with hand signals over a football field, so the 30 metre example he gave that would result in my dog not responding, simply wasn't true. The question I have (Im not having a go, jsut want to clarify) was it a recall from a sit stay you walk away than call or wasit from Ill chase a cat and when I almost catch it Mum calls and I leave the cat and return? Aus I'm not saying that I don't harness prey drive...I do incorporate alot of it, but I also employ pack drive, We all do, its probably the most important, especailly for a pet owner. Aus I'm just feeling that each time I share my experiences....I'm jumped on, and have the suggestion thrown at me that my dogs will not respond in the future... We all did, still do, check out the recall subject in the general secion or the ecollar subject. Everyone here is here to learn (well maybe except K9) and if someone knows a bit more than average there is no doubt that there will be discussions about it. Majority of people here, not only from Sydney have been to K9s workshops, had lessons and after a while speak the same language, it doesnt mean their dogs a perfectly trained, its jsut that they understand the concept and exchange info using the same words. Im happy to hear your experiences and compare them to mine, so keep them coming. If we dotn like what you say we will just crucify you thats all EDiting for the 5th time as the bloody quotes dont work! Edited September 16, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) Aus Daim's would recall with hand signals over a football field, so the 30 metre example he gave that would result in my dog not responding, simply wasn't true. The question I have (Im not having a go, jsut want to clarify) was it a recall from a sit stay you walk away than call or wasit from Ill chase a cat and when I almost catch it Mum calls and I leave the cat and return? actually..he'd actually be on full release mode..play time! :D ..all I'd have to do was call his name or whistle (to catch his attention,) put my arms up & he'd come a'runnin! :D ..and I could also call him off if he decided to chase something when he was in release mode...with one exception ;) ..possums! he wouldn't come back until he'd chased them up a tree! (he had "issues" with possums...we had ALOT of them around in the area & they used to take great delight in sitting in a tree above him & pissing on him! ;) ) Aus I'm just feeling that each time I share my experiences....I'm jumped on, and have the suggestion thrown at me that my dogs will not respond in the future... We all did, still do, check out the recall subject in the general secion or the ecollar subject. ...... Im happy to hear your experiences and compare them to mine, so keep them coming. If we dotn like what you say we will just crucify you thats all ;) Thanks Myz ....I was beginning to feel like a member of the bin laden family at a liberal party conference ......I usually have a pretty tough skin, & say what I think & stand up for it..but I think I'm just a little bit more fragile than normal since losing Daims ...BTW...I got his ashes back on Thursday.....so I'm probably really touchy & sooky in a typical dobe way at the moment ;) Aus edit: yeah, you're right...this quoting stuff is weird!...aww stuff it...can't be bothered trying to fix it...sure you can all work it out! :D Edited September 16, 2006 by Australdi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Glad you feel better about posting Aus Sincere condolences for you recent loss of Daim's too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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