Urban Dog Owners Take Lead In Sheepdog Trials

[MolassesLass]

Urban dog owners take lead in sheepdog trials

Tuesday, 18/04/2006

City dog owners are starting to replace retired farmers on the sheepdog

trial circuit.

The experts say they have noticed a big change, with city pet owners more

interested in putting their dog and three sheep through an obstacle course,

than competing in a traditional dog show.

Seven-time Australian representative Malcolm Taylor says while sheepdogs are

being used less on the land, their popularity in the cities is growing.

"But I think the future for dog trialing is going to alter quite a bit and

you'll see far more city dwellers that'll have a working dog in the city,"

he said.

"I know in Sydney there's an area they can go on a farm there, pay the dues

and work sheep with their dog, and I think you'll find city people will get

a lot more pleasure out of that than they will by having a dog on a lead

going to a show."

Full Story

[mjk05]

That's increasingly true here... most of the triallers are still farmers (at least part time) or retired farmers, but there are an increasing number of people like me, based in the city but with working-bred dogs who train and compete in sheepdog trials.

Its still hard to get to trials without missing one day (most are Friday/Saturday +/- Sunday) if you work "normal" hours, but many farmers these days find it too hard to find time to trial, let alone train. And often I think people who only spend a few hours each week training their dogs for trials have some advantage over those whose dogs work every day, but rarely train specific trial skills- especially in the 3sheep department.

I see more and more people getting working-bred dogs in town, and getting into sheepdog training for fun, then getting hooked and sucked into trialling :rolleyes:

[Kelpie-i]

Nothing wrong with that :rolleyes:

[herding_guy]

I have had a lot of fun trialling and working my dogs. Although trialling is becoming harder and harder because I'm helping city handlers train their dogs most weekends. :rolleyes:

From my point of view I think it's great and it's giving new life into the activity. We are now seeing a lot more starter / learner / city slicker entries in the yard utility trials accross Victoria where once we only had novice and open.

There are a lot of working bred dogs living in cities that need outlets and herding is the best one for them, seeing this is what they were bred to do. I quite often get that 8 yo kelpie or border collie who comes in having never seen sheep before that performs like an old pro - It's like a light bulb goes off in their head " Ah that's what my life is about". Those with behaviour problems and anxieties forget about all their dog or human aggressions or OCD's and work side by side with a strange dog and human. Their life seems to make sense to them all of a sudden. It's a wonderful thing.

It wont be long before we see city dog only trials!

Go city slickers!

[mjk05]

Nothing wrong with that

Nope, I'm one of them!!

It wont be long before we see city dog only trials!

Probably will have some city-based trials everywhere pretty soon, which would be great!

But I'd hate to see trialling become almost entirely city-based or even non-farming people... Trials need to stay grounded in the daily work to maintain their relevance, and to preserve the real value of the dogs bred for it. Plus if trials lose their link with rural people, farmers will lose their interest in the working dog. That's already a threat to good working dogs- the idea that utes/bikes can replace a good working dog :rolleyes:

I'd hate to see sheepdog trialling become "just a sport", with no relevance to the "real" daily work of a sheepdog.

Much cooler if they can remain a venue for city and country to meet

[herding_guy]

Probably will have some city-based trials everywhere pretty soon, which would be great!

....Much cooler if they can remain a venue for city and country to meet :rolleyes:

Agree but I also think there is a way to satisfy all. Some city based folk get a little nervous trialling for there first time at the country based trials. The city trials would give them the trialling experience they need to go on.

I a more concerned about the true working dog lines being overtaken by breeding for trialling only but this is a whole other subject.

[mjk05]

Some city based folk get a little nervous trialling for there first time at the country based trials. The city trials would give them the trialling experience they need to go on

Would you ban country people from city-based trials? Because I know a lot of "country folk" who love the one big city trial we have, and would enjoy having more (good excuse to squeeze in some shopping ) Or would you have easier courses/judging for city people?

I dunno about the "nervous" factor, I had a less-than-stellar trial debut just recently, and I didn't find it any more embarrassing or intimidating at a country based trial than I expect I would in the city. The country lot are very friendly and supportive of city people, they think its where much of the future trialling community will come from.

And there are already ANKC herding trials (which I've also done) which offer a gentle introduction to working dogs on livestock. That's almost entirely city-based people.

I a more concerned about the true working dog lines being overtaken by breeding for trialling only but this is a whole other subject.

Well yes, that's what I was alluding to, and I reckon it would be exacerbated by having a huge trialling scene of people and dogs that had never done "real" work, and just trained and bred for the trial scene. Dogs that win trials will tend to be bred from- if they are owned by people that still work them for a living, chances are they will still be "true working dog lines". So I'd like to see a balance maintained in trials, with some people doing it with their city-based pets (like me), and others with their daily work dogs... all in the same trials, all appreciating each others' presence and ability :rolleyes:

[herding_guy]

Would you ban country people from city-based trials? Because I know a lot of "country folk" who love the one big city trial we have, and would enjoy having more (good excuse to squeeze in some shopping ) Or would you have easier courses/judging for city people?

No, it would be great to have everyone included - the trials would be easier courses / judging and more regular events.

And there are already ANKC herding trials (which I've also done) which offer a gentle introduction to working dogs on livestock. That's almost entirely city-based people.

Yeh, thay've been great for the activity but still mostly show people / ANKC memebers and the courses don't include the yard utility type.

I a more concerned about the true working dog lines being overtaken by breeding for trialling only but this is a whole other subject.

Well yes, that's what I was alluding to, and I reckon it would be exacerbated by having a huge trialling scene of people and dogs that had never done "real" work, and just trained and bred for the trial scene.

Breeding for the trial scene is already happening out there and has been for some time. IMO 3 sheep trial dogs are not suitable for working in real situations. Love to see some of them unload a truck of 500 merinos. :rolleyes: its not what they were bred to do. We have 'real dogs' called Kelpies for this

I'm just hoping that the city trials will give those working dogs living in the city a chance to experience and do what they were origonally bred to do. Wether they only get to being trained for their first trial or go on to win a few at least they can do an activity they are meant to do. I'd hate to see people starting to breed for the suburban trialler there are plenty of good type dogs being bred out there now that will still fit the purpose anyway. In every litter you get the softer types coming through, the biddable ones, these are the dogs usually sold as pet, obedience, agility dogs etc.

[yogibear]

Hi guys

I think itys great that people are starting to give their dogs an oppurtunity to do what they were bred for In my experience this type of thing can only enhance the relationship between dog and handler and keep everyone just that bit more content.

there is nothing more wonderful thatn watching dogs work in their field whether it be retrieving hunting or herding

My only concern is there are a growing number of city dwellers getting hard working dogs to compete in agility and herding and they are outdogged a hard dog a real working dog is so impressive to watch but only a few handlers can manage a dog like that and though people think they will learn so much from a dog like that it doesnt always happen that way The softer dogs as HG describes are perfect for the city slickers who want to compete but live in surburbia

[mjk05]

IMO 3 sheep trial dogs are not suitable for working in real situations. Love to see some of them unload a truck of 500 merinos.

That's a bit of a generalisation There are some 3sheep-specific dogs that probably can't handle "real" work, but in WA, a large number of our most successful 3sheep trials dogs work every day on "real" properties. My OH's best 3sheep dog regularly works thousands of sheep through yards (and he's a border collie ).

No, it would be great to have everyone included - the trials would be easier courses / judging and more regular events.

Why do they need to be easier? Yard/utility trials already have the farmers/encourage class, which is perfect for beginners, the judges help you and you can walk out to help the dog on the cast.

ANKC trials are another available option- they (over here anyway) definitely aren't just show people, and the yearly subs for the ANKC aren't much different to those for the WSDA.

Basically, I don't see why we need anything other than maybe more trials close to the city and held just on weekends for us weekday workers. If people want something with "babysteps" of progression, much easier initial levels, the ANKC caters to that already. It might not be "yard style", but the small arenas they use for the Test levels and even Started A are similar to yard trials, and its a good first step up towards WSDA trialling.

If people are prepared to drive a little further, they can just jump into the WSDA trials. They can start off going along to watch, help out (there's lots to learn from helping let-out/pull-off sheep) and then have a go in Encourage. Our regular trialling community is probably about 1/4 city-based people, with city-based dogs, and that's how they got going. Some of them are regular Open winners now.

I'd hate to see people starting to breed for the suburban trialler there are plenty of good type dogs being bred out there now that will still fit the purpose anyway

Don't you think that would happen? If the city trials were easier, aimed only at city dogs, and the country "big guns" didn't attend, some people would only do city trials, and if their dogs were doing, chances are they'd breed them, sell to other city-based people, and we'd risk ending up with a "working-bred-lite" line of dogs.

At least at the existing WSDA trials, people can mix it with the farmers who trial, compete against the dogs who work every day, and take advantage of the knowledge and experience of some of those lifetime stockmen.

City people shouldn't feel intimidated or nervous about going to country trials- everyone is friendly and welcoming in general, and since city people already take their place in the winners, they can hold their own. Its always nerve-wracking to be a beginner, but that's the case anywhere. As this article says, city people are already out there doing it, so anyone feeling nervous won't be alone :rolleyes:

(oh, and having real "hard" working dogs take their holidays up here, as well as a couple of pretty high-drive working-bred dogs who live here, I think most working dogs fit in fine in the city... but that's another discussion )

[wagalot]

i thing it is great for city people to have the oppertunity to have a go at herding.

with more farmers using other options instead of dogs on there farms, lest city people (like my self) will keep the herding sport alive.

I have always been a big fan and enpired by watching sheep trails and watching working dogs do what there bred for.

I feel very proud and happy that i can have a go at this sport, and see my dog doing what he was bred to do.

so far with Cooper I have got our first real title (HT) and am still in training for the next level.....i am very very keen to try and get some where in herding, caz i injoy it alot and so does my dog :rolleyes:

cheers sam

[herding_guy]

IMO 3 sheep trial dogs are not suitable for working in real situations. Love to see some of them unload a truck of 500 merinos.

That's a bit of a generalisation

Probably is a generaisation but I'd still like to see them unload a truck of merinos I still prefer to choose the dog for the type of work...A trial dog is a trial dog anything else is a bonus (Now I'm in trouble :rolleyes:) but a dog chosen for working thousands of head over 1000's of acres is exactly that - if he can also be trialled that's a bonus too.

Why do they need to be easier? Yard/utility trials already have the farmers/encourage class, which is perfect for beginners, the judges help you and you can walk out to help the dog on the cast.

Last one I viewed her was a little too difficult perhaps I need to watch more. No help from judge and no helping dog on cast - but I have seen it done at friendlier/smaller trials with points lost.

Basically, I don't see why we need anything other than maybe more trials close to the city and held just on weekends for us weekday workers......

We are in agreeance but why not have a few more city based entry level trials anyway.

I'd hate to see people starting to breed for the suburban trialler there are plenty of good type dogs being bred out there now that will still fit the purpose anyway

Don't you think that would happen?

Yes I do, I just hope it doesn't. This is something we need to bring to light and hopefully gain control over before it becomes a problem.

City people shouldn't feel intimidated or nervous about going to country trials- everyone is friendly and welcoming in general, and since city people already take their place in the winners, they can hold their own. Its always nerve-wracking to be a beginner, but that's the case anywhere. As this article says, city people are already out there doing it, so anyone feeling nervous won't be alone

Dead right!

(oh, and having real "hard" working dogs take their holidays up here, as well as a couple of pretty high-drive working-bred dogs who live here, I think most working dogs fit in fine in the city... but that's another discussion )

I'm leaving this one alone

[Kelpie-i]

I would be all for city trials AND country trials - and everybody should be allowed to attend either!

I found the country people to be extremely friendly and full of advice at country trials- but it certainly doesn't remove the competitiveness from them - I would assume city slickers to be the same.

There are plenty of dogs that already fit the "suburban trialler" tag- no need to breed for them, however I feel this would be inevitable if city herding became popular. What would they breed for I wonder??? A dog that is highly sociable, doesn't shed, great working abiltiies, good with children and doesn't need training.....(sorry being sarcastic!)

[mjk05]

Probably is a generaisation but I'd still like to see them unload a truck of merinos

Come to WA, you'll meet a heap of 3sheep trial dogs that do that every day...

I would be all for city trials AND country trials - and everybody should be allowed to attend either!

I found the country people to be extremely friendly and full of advice at country trials- but it certainly doesn't remove the competitiveness from them - I would assume city slickers to be the same.

100% agree with you, Kelpie-i. I'm all in favour of having more city-based trials- it would raise the profile of the sport, the dogs and the work, and might help educate the public.

If the city trials were well attended by country folk, or just by the usual crowd of WSDA triallers, wouldn't city people be just as nervous about competing as if they went to a country trial :rolleyes: And we'd probably find the same group of triallers winning. Its also sometimes difficult to find the space to host a trial in town- the area needed for the trial course, the area needed for camping, dog exercise, and then getting proper trial sheep (not ones used for training) in large enough quantities for all the competitors.

I'm all for more city trials, but I don't think they need to be easier or aimed at city people specifically. Just an average WSDA trial or 6 close to town would be a good way of publicising the sport and educating the public, but if city people want to have a go, they should head out bush. The farmers don't bite (hard ) and once you have a go, its not so bad!

[MolassesLass]

There are plenty of dogs that already fit the "suburban trialler" tag- no need to breed for them, however I feel this would be inevitable if city herding became popular. What would they breed for I wonder??? A dog that is highly sociable, doesn't shed, great working abiltiies, good with children and doesn't need training.....(sorry being sarcastic!)

:rolleyes: Please keep this civil so that everyone can enjoy it if they so wish.

[BubbleGirl]

Rosie was bred for showing not working but she went really well on the weekend like she had been doing it all her life, I'll be one of the City Slickers giving it a go :rolleyes:

[herding_guy]

.... What would they breed for I wonder??? A dog that is highly sociable, doesn't shed, great working abiltiies, good with children and doesn't need training.....(sorry being sarcastic!)

The Aust Working Kelpie would be bred for more bidable, softer, nervey, type dogs that are easy to train for the novice handler - you know like those Border Collies. :rolleyes:

No, seriously though I have noticed a change in the AWK over the years. In the past people have bred "Cool" dogs and these dogs won big trials. However when breeding for this some dogs will be 'underdone' in tempremant, a little soft in nature. These dogs don't take the knocks like the kelpie was origonally bred for.

What you need in a trial dog is the cool dog, keenness tempered with pliability, ie ability to accept a high degree of discipline while still retaining the desire to work.

Edited April 20, 2006 by herding_guy

[Guest Clover]

It wont be long before we see city dog only trials!

Probably will have some city-based trials everywhere pretty soon, which would be great!

I would love to see some city based Trials, we have 1 3sheep trial here a year, and as far as i know no yard trials which sucks as we will have to trek out to all of the country shows for yard trials.

.... What would they breed for I wonder??? A dog that is highly sociable, doesn't shed, great working abiltiies, good with children and doesn't need training.....(sorry being sarcastic!)

The Aust Working Kelpie would be bred for more bidable, softer, nervey, type dogs that are easy to train for the novice handler - you know like those Border Collies.

Smart j/k. I will lend you my working BCs for a day Dave lol. My guys have adapted to city life just fine, no they are not great with kids (They tollerate them, just like me) & are not overly social with other dogs (Dogs they dont know), but they live quite happily in the "city"... if you would call Ballarat the city anyway . Oh and they dont shed their coats much either.

[herding_guy]

Smart j/k. I will lend you my working BCs for a day Dave lol.

Noooooooo!

All jokes aside though - here is a quote from Lance Barnett when asked about selecting for trial, published in the The Countryman 2 January 1969, when asked about selecting for trial;

"...It is supremely important to select dogs that are that are most ready to comply - and this, in my view, is where the Border Collie men have licked the Kelpie breeders.

In the beginning, as today, the Border Collie man when selecting his dogs considersthat the most desirable traits are good dispositionand readiness to comply. Thus they have become heriditary traitsfirmly fixed in the BC make up.

The Kelpie on the other hand, appears to have been bred by men equally as hard headed and determined as the dog itself. And so Kelpies have been bred that could be flogged into insensibility before they would listen to reason. Their greatest hearing aid a piece of plastic piping."

What was he trying to say?

However we have digressed somewhat -

We'll need to get some well organised city based yard utility trials organised and see what happens.

[Kavik]

That makes the Kelpies seem so appealing