Triangle Of Temptation

[BCNTC]

ok, how the heck would this work with a dog who has absolutly zero interest in food? I have always used play training with my fear agressive dog because she could not care less about food, she is 6 years old and I have had since since she was 10 weeks old, to this day I still have to convince her that eating is crucial to her survival(I acrually had to train her to eat lol) , I give her a treat and she drops it and looks at me like I am the worst mom ever, how dare I give her a treat lol the only time she seems like she is in food drive is when the other 4 dogs are leaping around barking for their food, then Happy behaves all crazy and yappy as if she wants food, but as soon as you hand her the food she just looks at it, as far as she is concernd that juicy raw meat could sit in front of her in her crate with her for hours and she doesent care, I actually have to sit in front of her and encourage her to eat, we took her to the vet thinking something was medicaly wrong, that eating was painfull or something, but the vet said Happy is the healthiest dog she has ever met. without other dogs around she just sits there. I tried fasting her for a day and a half, put her on the tie out, went inside preapred her some food, when I walked out she was just laying there like "whatever" I brought out food, she looked mildly interested, I set it down near her, and walked beside her, she just sat there looking at me so I said yes, gave her the ok and she just wandered over slowly with the hang dog look, like ill eat it I HAVE to... its kinda difficult to teach in food drive when the dog has no food drive. now WORK drive is another story, I used(before, not for this TOT thing) a mechanical treat training thingy that made a beep and spit out a treat(I use it for another dog) rather then go for the treats she walked around to the back studying where the beep was comming from lol. would the whole thing still work if I replaced the food with toys?

Edited August 7, 2006 by BCC

[Steve K9Pro]

BCC: ok, how the heck would this work with a dog who has absolutly zero interest in food?

K9: all dogs have some interest in food, or they would not eat/survive.

BCC: I have always used play training with my fear agressive dog because she could not care less about food, she is 6 years old and I have had since since she was 10 weeks old, to this day I still have to convince her that eating is crucial to her survival(I acrually had to train her to eat lol) , I give her a treat and she drops it and looks at me like I am the worst mom ever, how dare I give her a treat lol the only time she seems like she is in food drive is when the other 4 dogs are leaping around barking for their food, then Happy behaves all crazy and yappy as if she wants food, but as soon as you hand her the food she just looks at it, as far as she is concernd that juicy raw meat could sit in front of her in her crate with her for hours and she doesent care, I actually have to sit in front of her and encourage her to eat, we took her to the vet thinking something was medicaly wrong, that eating was painfull or something, but the vet said Happy is the healthiest dog she has ever met. without other dogs around she just sits there. I tried fasting her for a day and a half, put her on the tie out, went inside preapred her some food, when I walked out she was just laying there like "whatever" I brought out food, she looked mildly interested, I set it down near her, and walked beside her, she just sat there looking at me so I said yes, gave her the ok and she just wandered over slowly with the hang dog look, like ill eat it I HAVE to... its kinda difficult to teach in food drive when the dog has no food drive. now WORK drive is another story, I used(before, not for this TOT thing) a mechanical treat training thingy that made a beep and spit out a treat(I use it for another dog) rather then go for the treats she walked around to the back studying where the beep was comming from lol. would the whole thing still work if I replaced the food with toys?

K9: I would start shrinking the dogs meals, & only make food available for ten minutes per day then throw it out. Fast the dog once per week..

On the day you fast her, feed the others, I am sure it will increase her food drive....

But yes you can do something similar with a toy...

[MonElite]

Both of my dogs are poor eaters and always thin.

Yesterdays dinner that I served got a full refusal from both as it contained some veg matter insead of pure meat

They chose to go to bed hungry.

My 6.5 yo male treasuered the opened gate and I used this as the temptation.

My baby girl thinks the greatest stuff comes when the door opens for her either to go out or to come in, I sometimes use this as a tempation.

if its correct or not I dont know, but makes my life easy, thats for sure. Noone is charging through the door or the gate.

[BCNTC]

she is on a raw diet, she is only fed once a day, and the food only takes 2 minutes to finish off, she usally eats some of it without me ordering her too, but I usually have to order her to eat the rest, if I didnt she would litterally be emaciated, as it is she is abnormaly slight at only 25lbs, and a fully grown 21" tall BC.

but I did try the TOT with a ball, and it worked as described though

[Red Mal]

Steve,

I have tried to study this programme and all the replies and questions, to get it right in my head before I start and want to impliment it with my dogs. I have 2 that are 6 mnths old, who inhale food, but have absolutely no attention span whatsoever in every other training I have tried. I'm sure TOT can work for them as they are so food driven so fingers crossed.

My problem is also as BCC stated, I have a non eater. He's 2 years old and looks neglected and always has done. I have tried everything, every food, every technique, every bribe, letting the other 2 near his food/him etc, even had him to 4 different vets for various tests to determine why he won't eat. I have to demand he eats now, and then it will only be a morsel or two Vets say nothing is wrong, he's just being him, but I have even done the removal of food if he won;t eat it. He will then starve himself for another added day, it seems, just to get me back He has recently blown his coat and doesn't feel himself when does this, so he never ate for 5 days at all. He looks at food like a chore. He has a couple of toys, but none that I could entice him with (I've tried). He's just not motivated about anything and I don't know how I can start TOT without having something to motivate him with. The only thing he has 'drive' for is if he spots the front door open, and he wants to 'leg it' I couldn't use this, as he would never 'get' his reward of being allowed to leg it round our neighbourhood. The drive for going on a walk is not enough either. I'm sure sometimes I look at him and feel so sorry for him. THe only other thing he has drive for is attention from visitors, but I live miles awy from no-where and couldn't expect visitors to come round every meal time.

I would really appreciate any suggestions

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: there is a lot in reading the dogs body language, I could guess what I would do but that all may change if I seen the dogs, spent some time with them..

This no eating is usually one of two things, some sort of anxiety or simply spoilt.

As I cant read the body language I can only suggest actions for the latter of the two.

Make sure your dog is completely separated from the other dogs at leats 30 mins before dinner.,

Put out the dogs food make it a plain meal & make sure its at room temp.

Run the TOT, take the food away after 10 minutes.

If the dog ate none, no food the nest day at all, no treats, scraps found food etc...

The day after that do the same, ensurfe that this dog learns to understand the only food it will ever get it out of that bowl, in the triangle, no good waiting to see what happanes later dog...

Do this every day for two weeks, always have water available..

See what happens...

[Red Mal]

Thanks for that.....

Just one more question .............

When I bring him (the non eater) inside for the 30 minute separation before dinner, should I then start the TOT with the other dogs first, so he can see they are being fed before him and he is not getting anything (not yet anyway), as he will see something new is giong on ??? or should I make sure they are out of his sight first ???

Sorry if this sounds mumbled, I'm just thinking lol

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I would give him 30 minutes not seeing them at all, jjust trying to cover the notion that he may feel dominated by them... Like I said I cant see him...

If you know how to tape & send videos I would be happy to take a look, or lol, set up a workshop in the UK lol...

[Red Mal]

lol He's definitely not dominated by them lol He's the boss lol but I will try it anyway, I have nothing to lose

lol yes come to the UK lol The TOT technique is not heard of here and I know of hundreds of people who would benefit lol hurry up though cos summer's nearly over lol

[Winterpaws]

And if he does head to the UK then I claim a ticket cause I am the one that told my lovely lovely malamute friends all about Steve

Hey redmal nice to see you over here!

eta - if i do get that ticket I'm staying with Red Mal!!! Hope she doesn't mind! :lol:

Edited August 9, 2006 by Winterpaws

[Meriment]

or lol, set up a workshop in the UK lol...

What a great idea, Red Mal do you mind waiting till next July?!

As I'll be in the UK at that time for a holiday, I could fit in the workshop at the same time

How cool would that be!

[Red Mal]

Next July .....I have to wait THAT long WOW that would be fantastic. I know of a lot of people that would benefit and pay. The biggest here going back last year was Jan Fennel (the dog listener) but some of her techniques have since been known to have some sever drawbacks and people (including some of my friends) were paying £300 for a 1 day workshop someone will have to translate that into $$ cos it was 2 years since I lived in Perth WA

Winterpaws : come on over and do some real mushing in the snow

[Meriment]

people (including some of my friends) were paying £300 for a 1 day workshop someone will have to translate that into $$ cos it was 2 years since I lived in Perth WA

$750!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Red Mal]

See, there's money to be made over here, whilst having a lovely fresh (cold & wet) English holiday

[Meriment]

See, there's money to be made over here, whilst having a lovely fresh (cold & wet) English holiday :p

Ahhh, but it's not cold & wet in July, is it

Sorry. :rolleyes:

[Red Mal]

well we had a good July this year :rolleyes: but as the old saying goes.......if you don't like English weather...just wait a minute :p you can never tell

[Meriment]

Well after our Perth K9 Force workshop last weekend, I started all my dogs on TOT last night...

... and it worked!! They (we?!) did brilliantly! So no questions.... YET

[Rom]

Guys,

I was wondering if any of you who have been to see Steve have friends in the doggy world that live in South East Queensland that may be interested in coming to a Training in Drive Workshop in Gympie?

I'd love some help to get the info out about this workshop if you do!

Cheers!

ETA: Some from Northern NSW might also find the trip worthwhile too!

Edited September 3, 2006 by Rom

[Mokey]

Now bring out your dogs food, show it to your dog, & begin to walk out in front of your dog, your looking for that moment in distance that your dog looks like the food wasn't for him or her after all. Basically taking the dog just out of full food drive.

Your trying to trigger the dogs' high food drives but not so high as to make self control impossible, this would be called drive peak. This distance for some dogs is 2 metres, other 10 metres.

Now you will find our dog looking at the food, possibly trying to get to it, this is what you want.

If the dog is going to hysterics, move the food further away. (This would be an example of full food drive peak)

What it shows is that the dog thinks that he is entitled to the food, but that's not the case.

Approach your dog & stand at his right hand side, stand quietly whilst the dog gets all excited for the food. Look at your dog & wait. Say nothing.

One of two things will happen, either the dog will go on & on & just stare at the food or he will look at you.

If he doesn't look, say the dogs name. You want to see the dog look at you, when he/she does be quick to "mark" the look with "yes" then release the dog with an OK (free) command & let the dog loose to eat the food, you should sound very happy.

I'm assuming that I put the food bowl on the ground at some point in there. Could you please clarify when? (Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly!)

Thank you,

- Mokey

[dasha]

Hi K9,

Hi just have a Question re TOT. I am keen to start one of my dogs on this ASAP as I think I need to re-establish the pecking order between us as she has become increasingly arrogant and selectively hearing me as well as starting fights between the other female dog. She also guards and food from the other dogs quite badly.

My problem here is that I have already conditioned her with "yes" as a bridge/release for reward word since she was a pup. She was taught that "yes" indicated the behaviour is over and she could end it. So is "yes" still the word to use when she looks at me but now she just needs to wait for OK til she can go, or do I need to use another word to mark the look such as "good" so I don't confuse her.

She does have very high food and prey drive so I am sure she will learn pretty fast either way.

Also in your TOT post you mentioned about the dog circling its food to watch you, is this a good thing or bad. Are you saying that if the dog circles looking at me, that she considers me as alpha? And if that is the case, if she is circling watching another dog, does she consider that dog as alpha and to heck with me! I am just curious as she is fighting alot between with another bitch and am trying to sort this out before they do much more damage to each other.

Sorry for having so many questions,when I am so new to DOL,

Dasha