Jed Posted September 24, 2002 Author Share Posted September 24, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wundahoo Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Hi V.A.H. and Jed. I'm on "night release" from the Salt Mines...have to check in tomorrow morning though!! V.A.H. ....tube feeding IS really scary the first time that you try it, but as long as you do it a couple of times with someone experienced to show you how, and you follow the rules as Jed has already explained, it seems so much easier than trying to bottle or dropper feed. It is actually far more energy efficient that either of the conventional ways and sometimes makes the difference between a really tiny or weak pup surviving or dying. It doesnt require any energy outlay from the pup and so ALL the nutrition that they get from the feed goes straight to the pup, not some of it being used to make up the difference that is expended by the effort of suckling from a bottle (or mum) or swallowing drop by drop. It is also much quicker and reduces the amount of handling time that sick, small or weak pups get and so allows for much better mothering time from the bitch. Because the pup is away from her for such a short period of time, the mother doesnt seem to get so bothered when a pup disappears and reappears some time later....no checking and inventory taking by the mum, or attempts by her to help 'cos she thinks that you are taking a jolly long time to get the job done!! The method that I use to determine how far the tube should go in is to measure from the tip of the nose, over the head, down the back to the edge of the last rib. When passing the tube, this distance, plus just a fraction more in some cases, will ensure that the tube is placed in the stomach. Like Jed, I also mark the tube with a texta pen. You should use the largest width tube possible as this also ensures that the tube fits into the oesophagus and not the trachea. The trachea is a narrower diameter than the oesophagus, which stretches. The trachea is a relatively rigid structure. It is important to remember that as the pup grows the length of the tube needs to be remarked and also, if a pup is growing rapidly, then the tube needs to be changed for a wider diameter. Jed has the intubation technique absolutely correct, and is obviously a "dab hand" at this. Remember, that if the pup struggles, coughs or you are not sure that you have the tube in right place, just start again. If I am at all doubtful, sometimes I have pinched a toe or tail and if the pup squeeks, the tube is in the right place. If it is a trachael intubation, the pup will cough, sometimes struggle and will not be able to make a sound if the tube is through its vocal chords. The most important thing is that you should only syringe in the milk when you have convinced yourself that you are in the right place. If not, then remove the tube and start again. Placing an EMPTY tube into the pup's trachea will not hurt it, but to try to give the milk WILL, and it is best to try a second time if you cannot decide for sure that you are in the right place. Some pups get so accustomed to tube feeding that they will swallow the tube for you with only a small amount of assistance from you, just like a long piece of spaghetti. I had a pup some years ago that only needed the tube moistened with a little milk and placed into his mouth, and he would promptly proceed to swallow it and then sit and wait for his "milk hit". He was a really strong and vigorous pup and it was so funny to see him frantically looking for the tube to swallow, then just sit there waiting to have his belly filled with no further effort. Once you have learnt the technique, you will wonder why you ever bothered with bottle or dropper feeding, especially if you have a large number of pups to feed or very weak or tiny pups. When you are learning the technique, I cant emphasise enough, how important it is to have someone experienced, proficient and quietly patient at your side to guide you, not because it is difficult or dangerous, but simply because the successful mastering of the tube feeding technique has a great deal to do with confidence. :D :D Give it try!! [ 23-09-2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Wundahoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Thanks for the distinction - yes Jim, the 'stiff pup' phrase did catch my eye. Interesting lesson on intubating....just like watching "er"....Drs Jed and Wundahoo! [ 24-09-2002, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: D ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 24, 2002 Author Share Posted September 24, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Well ladies,you sure told me the tricks--I feel a bit better prepared on this now. But W, I am all alone here,used to have a great Peke breeder who beccame a mentor on whleping problems and solutions and she moved yearss ago so i do it all alone,even to the struggle to get a mating with two maidens, but that's a different ctory!--still will ask at Vets again and see if they can get a couple tubes ordered in for me in case. I need to do this method. A few years ago, when I mentioned "tube feeding" that an acquaintance tol dme about she had done to save two lil poos,at my vets, the boss lady and two asistants looked at me as if I had suggested we all go play doctors and nurses behind the sheltersheds--it turned out not one had ever seen it and they had no literature or ideas on it at all!! So if it's necessary, it will be me on me PatMalone, but the best clue is the tickle foot idea--I am deaf and would never discern a breath by sound--thanks again, I've had to learn to assist with afterbirths and cutting cords, then taking over the tail docking and dewclawing when vets stoped doing it for a fe per pup, and now I am at my possibly last two litters I will bred, I would HATE to cop out and lose a pup I might have saved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest braydnvale Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 It has been actually interesting to read about the rigid stiff puppies, I had 2 like this in a litter of 5 Cavalier puppies in May which unfortunately died. It is very scary and you feel so helpless, our little one was doing it every time I lifted her up to feed her. The first puppy died with 24 hours of me witnessing the seizure, the other lasted 1 week of supplement feeding every few hours. In the last few hours of her life, the seizures were happening every 30 minutes. Im not sure if this has any connection to the seizures but when supplement feeding her in the end, as I was tubing in the milk it was running like a tap out the other end. She died the early hours of Mothers Day. Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Do you think its reasonable to say that the one thing all of these puppies have had in common was being hand fed? If so what product where you all feeding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 25, 2002 Author Share Posted September 25, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest braydnvale Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Hi Steve Both my puppies started to have fits before the hand feeding. I had rang the vet 2 hours after I witnessed the first fit episode (I first noticed at 6am in the morning). My litter was kept warm, with a heat pad (and enough room to crawl off if the need be) and kept in my bedroom free of distractions and drafts. My vet did advise when they started to fit they would go quickly down hill. They were 3 days old when this happened. On veterinary advice I was told to give a little honey mixed with water on the tongue (one drop) which stopped the fitting until we could get to the vet. She thought it would be due to a drop in Sugar?. She said if you get them early enough when you see the fitting, they usually can be saved. In the about 8 litters of Cavalier puppies I have had this was the only litter I have had the fitting pups in, previously I have never even lost a puppy (the bitch was from a different line to what I usually breed with). I have used Biolac with 1/2 egg yolk (this gives the puppies extra calories) and 1 drop of Canola oil (to stop constipation)added to 600mls of biolac for all my litters when the puppies are dehydrated to pick them up until they have enough energy to suckle. I have saved 8 puppies on this mixture with no deaths, until these 2 fitting pups. Both these pups were good weights of 260gms at birth (I have previously saved puppies at 120gms on this mixture). The last puppy which died did get better in leaps and bounds for 3 days after the seizures (with no fits witnessed), but then on Day 7 the seizures started again, and on Day 8 when she died they were coming every 5 minutes, I knew the end was near I must admit, I didnt swab this bitch (the only time I have not had a bitch swabbed at all) - maybe this could have something to do with it. I have found Cavalier bitches usually whelp early, or the day of the due date from the first mating. Tia whelped very late at night of the first due date, even though I had ultrasounded her at the vet that morning just to make everything was okay, the vet would not do a caesar as this was her first litter, and she wanted to see how she would go before rushing in. Tia has now gone back to her original breeder, for her next litter in Tassie and it will be interesting to see if this happens when she has her next litter. Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest braydnvale Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Hi Its me again, I forgot to add (call it slight memory loss) that the first 8 hours the pups only were give lactade at 1/2 strength with no other supplements. Then after that biolac was introduced (made with half strength lactade in place of water) over the next 24 hours. The vet said as the puppys cannot absorb all the milk (due to being severly dehydrated) and the full strength milk sits in the stomach (this is seen in PM's). Joanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 O.K. This is nearly it. My little stiff puppy bitch is due to whelp in the next couple of weeks and although I was a bit cocky back when I mated her I have to admit Ive a little sweat on my face now Im getting close. Ive set up a sterile area where Ill put her from the time she has about 5 days to go.Im supplimenting her diet with amino acids with an extra bit of Arginine, and she is also having extra folic acid and now raspberry leaf tabs.Ive an anti biotic shot to give her a week before the delivery date to cover any Ecoli, strep or staph bacteria and Ill give her probiotics.The shot works for 5 days so gives the puppies time to develop good flora again in their gut before they are born.Ive got a dextrose solution to cover hyperglycemia,and an injectable fluid for the puppies to give them calcium and amino acids in case its an arginine and or calcium thing.All kinds of things to make sure she and the puppies are warm and protected from draughts to protect against hypothermia. Ive also got everything I need in case I get a stiffie and I need to draw blood.So thats bacteria, calcium, arginine, hypoglycemia,hypothermia all covered. Can anyone think of anything Ive missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Yeah - a good stiff drink for yourself! I don't think you could be more prepared. Good luck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Steve---my God- the Canine Hospital--any TV crew there yet??? Best of British goes without saying. I am awaiting news, as in the end I had a health crisis here and a friend has driven 5 hrs,and relieved me of 6 of my 10 dogs, including the two pregnant girls, so she and her vets and friends(toy poo breeders) will do the work and worry if tubing etc is needed--I am so grateful, tho on advice from you here, I had enquired and priced a tube(OOHH!!that much??)and arranged the vet would help out and LEND me one if I got into any difficulties, with Jazz whelping and milking. Think of you, S!! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Good luck with this litter steve, please let us know how you go. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 . Steve, don't forget a friend to help you have shifts- that is, rest breaks. ----------------------------------- In people we trust our dogs deserve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 O.K. This is it we're in labour! 2 puppies so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Good luck Steve - hope all goes well. Damn - too early for that scotch then eh? or is it? :D D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 fingers crossed--calling all religious idols to assist--go Steve and lovely little mum--beat the odds this time :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Eek! Good luck... update when you can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted October 31, 2002 Share Posted October 31, 2002 Just a quick note about hypoglycaemia, unfortunately I have had extensive experience with it. Normally it is a result of the puppy being chilled and/or not getting enough to eat. Never feed a puppy that has fitted, normally their temperature is below normal and feeding them will, in most cases result in their death. They must be slowly warmed up and then fed a solution of glucose and water. Don't be in a hurry to switch back to formula, they can survive on glucose for 3-4 days. The best way to get the glucose into them is injection under the skin, it is more rapidly absorbed than by tube feeding. Also my best tip was learned from an old time breeder and has saved many puppies for me. The seizuring is what normally causes death so to stop them give the puppy brandy to relax their brain. It gives you time to get them walmed up and to get the glucose into them before a seizure can kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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