Bindibu Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Okay guys here is one for you! The Club I train with has an instructor (instructed for a number years with this particualar Dog Club) whom has never entered a dog in a Trial/Show, own dogs not even trained to CCD Level . My question is how on earth could this person pass on knowledge about training dogs to beginners in the field of dog obedience? Learning something from a book is no qualification to call oneself an Instructor it should come down to ability and proven ability. Thats what I think . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) I am aware situations where people with titles on their dogs believe that they are superior dog trainers to those that don't have titles. I just want those who go looking for training mentors or obedience clubs to know that there are many reasons why really good trainers may not have titles on their dogs:*They may not be interested in competing *If they do compete, they may not be as serious about winning *Some compete for the social outing rather than to win at all costs *They may not have the time to put into their own dogs to train them to competition level standards but they really enjoy helping others achieve their goals. *Titles may not be the end goal of their training program. For example, there are no titles to compete for for assistance dogs or guide dogs for the blind, or excellent family pets where manners and loose lead walking are more important than precise heeling. On the other side of the spectrum, there are some that I know that have titled dogs that: *Will compete with injured dogs on pain killers *Believe that the best way to deal with dog aggressive dogs is to put 2 of them together and punish them when they react. *Believe that the alpha roll is the way to punish a dog for dog aggression *Do not assess the dog before implementing a training program. *Will write a dog off as a possible obedience competitor without considering that it may need a different training method, meaning that if you have a problem dog and end up in a class instructed by them they will basically tell you to get rid of the dog, or the dog will never be any good. I'm not saying that all owners of titled dogs are guilty of the above, but just that I know of some who are, so I don't believe that titles alone are an indication of the training expertise of the dog owner. Add to that the trainer who has chosen a dog that is very easy to train and compete with, that has little understanding or patience when working with breeds that are more challenging.Yup agree with DD completely.Also, there's also a stigma with some dog clubs that if you've titled your dog, they automatically think you're going to want to train others as an instructor. I personally think I would SUCK at that, because I'm just not a good teacher. LOL Hey at least I admit it. -WithEverythingIAm If you have stayed long enough to title your dog, and enjoyed the benefits of club membership for so long, it is to be expected that those that have given up their free time to help you might appreciate you contributing something back to your club. Another way of reducing the 'stigma' and contributing to your club is to volunteer to go on committees, or take on other regular responsibilities. Most clubs are short of volunteers and especially short of instructors. The more people that take the time to learn to instruct the less pressure there would be on existing instructors.Okay guys here is one for you! The Club I train with has an instructor (instructed for a number years with this particualar Dog Club) whom has never entered a dog in a Trial/Show, own dogs not even trained to CCD Level . My question is how on earth could this person pass on knowledge about training dogs to beginners in the field of dog obedience? Learning something from a book is no qualification to call oneself an Instructor it should come down to ability and proven ability. Thats what I think .Most clubs would regularly assess their instructors, and expect them to have achieved a level of competancy. A person is capable of passing on knowledge regardless of whether they have entered a trial or not, there is a lot more to dog obedience and dog behaviour than entering trials. They may not be able to advise handlers on the finer points of ringcraft, but they might have an advanced working knowledge of training beginner handlers or puppy class. The majority of club members at any obedience club will never enter a trial anyway, all they want is to have their dog under basic control.Volunteer instructors are giving something back to their club and their community. There are plenty of people at obedience clubs that just take all they can without giving anything at all back to their club. Clubs depend on volunteers both instructors and committee members, and if it was not for these volunteers, clubs would not exist and all people wanting to learn would be forced to pay for private tuition. Unfortunately fewer people these days volunteer even on a casual basis, let alone make the commitment neccessary to become an instructor. I was invited to learn to be an instructor long before I gained a title, and passing the instructors course was a lot harder and required a far greater commitment than just gaining my novice title. Just because somebody has a title does not make them instructor material. Instructors need the ability to train people as much as they need the ability to train dogs. If somebody is paying for private tuition, they are paying for the right to have high expectations of service, and to have instructors with formal qualifications. But the people that are members of low-fee obedience clubs that don't make a personal contribution, yet complain about the standard of instruction or the management of the club, should understand that their club membership does not entitle them to anything other than a membership badge and the right to use the facilities. If other members of the club choose to give up their free time to make the club work, they should really be thanked, not whinged about. Edited, to fix errors I made because I was tired when I wrote it. Edited October 12, 2006 by Greytmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 (edited) Bindibu, I wonder how many clubs have one or two instructors like you describe? I know of a couple myself. Many times they are reluctant instructors and they are there because they show the commitment to be there. Instructing positions are not easy to fill both from the perspective of available and willing bodies and also that they have a training philosophy that has a good fit with the club. The other thing to consider is that the vast majority of people who join dog obedience clubs have absolutely no intention of trialling, they just want a well behaved family pet, so in this instance is it necessary that all instructors have trial titles when they just want a dog that will walk on a loose lead and obey some simple commands and are not necessarily interested in precise heeling? I guess its like HR says, if they can demonstrate an ability to help a handler and their dog achieve results, then they deserve some merit. ETA: Well said Greytmate, you beat me both in timing and eloquence! Edited October 12, 2006 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 (edited) [quote name=wheres my rock' date='12th Oct 2006 - 07:24 AM' for me dog trianing is about challenging myself im always trying new things and experimenting to find what works best for me. at the moment i ave a fox terrier pup that is very independent had no socialisation we got her at 16 weeks and was still running wit litter mates in a kennel only human contact was when she was fed. this has oened a whole new set of problems im aiming to eventually have several breeds from each ankc group to the highest level i can in obedience tracking and what ever else they can do heidi the foxie will be doing earthdog forinstance im a big beleiver in giving dogs oulets to use there natural desire.post='1291869] Good luck! You are obviously very committed! Congratulations on "taking on the foxy"! What has happened to the Sheltie, B.C., and Cocker that you had in the past few years?? Edited October 14, 2006 by snobbybobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 (edited) still with us Edited October 14, 2006 by wheres my rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Yup agree with DD completely. Also, there's also a stigma with some dog clubs that if you've titled your dog, they automatically think you're going to want to train others as an instructor. I personally think I would SUCK at that, because I'm just not a good teacher. LOL Hey at least I admit it. -WithEverythingIAm If you have stayed long enough to title your dog, and enjoyed the benefits of club membership for so long, it is to be expected that those that have given up their free time to help you might appreciate you contributing something back to your club. Another way of reducing the 'stigma' and contributing to your club is to volunteer to go on committees, or take on other regular responsibilities. Most clubs are short of volunteers and especially short of instructors. The more people that take the time to learn to instruct the less pressure there would be on existing instructors. OK, But you are saying the exact same thing to what I said above here... I was invited to learn to be an instructor long before I gained a title, and passing the instructors course was a lot harder and required a far greater commitment than just gaining my novice title. Just because somebody has a title does not make them instructor material. Instructors need the ability to train people as much as they need the ability to train dogs. If somebody is paying for private tuition, they are paying for the right to have high expectations of service, and to have instructors with formal qualifications. But the people that are members of low-fee obedience clubs that don't make a personal contribution, yet complain about the standard of instruction or the management of the club, should understand that their club membership does not entitle them to anything other than a membership badge and the right to use the facilities. If other members of the club choose to give up their free time to make the club work, they should really be thanked, not whinged about. That is exactly me. I'm not Instructor material. I never winged. I went to every meeting on a different night to Obedience. I paid me fees each week. Wouldn't have to have if I'd taken on the role of Instructor, BUT I don't think people should have to pay money to be taught Obedience by a crappy instructor, ala me! -WithEverythingIAm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 lol im the same i go to club pay my fees use the equipment help out with ots of things but i dont instruct i do belive in putting back into the club but in my own way and with too many dgs to trian i really dont have time to instruct however we are starting a night class soon and i will be running a trialing group then and basic agility i think splus trianing for the instructors which to me is helping at the most important level teaching the instructors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyesongTollrz Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 At a club I used to be at, I ended up teaching (sometimes two classes) each training night, and never got to train my own dogs. They'd come along with me, but then other instructors wouldn't show up, so someone had to teach the classes. And then on agility nights everyone would show up just when class started, and find a way to leave as soon as class was over, leaving me to lug away all of the equipment myself. Then they all complained when I refused to teach agility anymore. I'm at two clubs now. One is an agility only club, and I make sure I'm there early to help, and stay until everything is put away, but I'm now training three dogs, and need to devote the time to them, so prefer to spend my times training them. The other club is an obedience club, and I'm the trial secretary, so run seven trials a year for them instead, and consider that to be my fair share. No matter which club you belong to, it's always a struggle to find people to help out. If everyone did a little bit of something (instructing, stewarding at trials, even helping by putting out the gear and putting it away), then it would be fair to everyone. It's the members who take and take and take without giving anything back that drive me crazy, like one competitor at our club who gives her points to our club, only when there is a trial at our club (because our end of year trophies only count at home trials), and at other trials gives them to another club. She doesn't train at the club, and has never lifted a finger to help out, but wants to be in with a chance to win our end of year trophies. I'm not eligible for any of my own clubs end of year trophies because I'm always running the trials, but she can be eligible for them just by paying her membership? Personally, I'd like to see clubs impose a rule that all members must assist at a certain number of trials per year. Would certainly mean less grey hairs for me, running around trying to find stewards! Anyone want to steward next saturday night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Oh yeah - I always help put out Agility Equipment at my old club, and put it back again. I also helped out with Canteen at trials for old club, when I wasn't actually trialling my dog, then go back to canteen after I'd put my dog thru the ring. -WithEverythingIAm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 That is exactly me. I'm not Instructor material. I never winged. I went to every meeting on a different night to Obedience. I paid me fees each week. Wouldn't have to have if I'd taken on the role of Instructor, BUT I don't think people should have to pay money to be taught Obedience by a crappy instructor, ala me! But how do you know if you would be a good instructor or not unless you undertake an instructor's course and learn to be an instructor? People are not paying money each week to be taught by an instructor, they are paying to be a member of a club that has voluntary instructors. Skyesong, there were people just like that at our obedience club, they would also turn up to win the trophies at the in-club competitions. The only meeting they ever attend is the annual general meeting to collect their trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 That is exactly me. I'm not Instructor material. I never winged. I went to every meeting on a different night to Obedience. I paid me fees each week. Wouldn't have to have if I'd taken on the role of Instructor, BUT I don't think people should have to pay money to be taught Obedience by a crappy instructor, ala me! Hi all, I was also asked by a club to "do the instructors course". I didn't think I was instructor material but had some ideas about positive reinforcement to pass on. I also paid my fees and went along to help "set up" and "clean away" at the end of all of the sessions. None of that was acknowledged, or appreciated but I was criticized for having a "shrieking dog". (my dog usually "announced his arrival but soon settled down". His critics were owners of the same breed who, IMHO, were extremely envious of his looks, intelligence and obedience ability.) The dog world makes me "sick". I know that I'm being "paranoid" BUT!??? I considered that I had passed on some not only good ideas but also a lot of material such as videos and books. The club, which shall remain unidentified, chose to keep all the stuff I had donated and "spit" on my contributions. Stuffem!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 snobby i know what you mean some clubs get so caught up in politics they cant see what they are losing out on the thing im always trying to impress at our club is that everyone has somehting to offer and if we treat people with an open welcoming attitude it is surprising what they will bring to the table. Our club still has politics but they are much friendlier than other places ive been what they lack in experience they make up for in friendliness and i really enjoying going there to the poin that we never seem to leave before lunch time I have made a point of not listening to whining if someone comes to me to complain about something i try to find something constructive they can do to help rectify the problem For example someone was complaining about the lack of knowledge of some instructors i asked them if they were willing to instruct they sad no as they have three dogs to trian fair enough im in the same boat so i suggested maybe they could come help out at instructor trianing teaching the instructors how better to use the tools they have they were flattered that their experience was welcome and that they could contribute with out affeting their own training time . i also have a couple of people looking into running some trick days etc because it interests them and they were complaining classes were boring. WE also are running a special night for instructors to trian their dogs so they dont miss out and are planning to bring in some really good people to help them with their dogs so they get something special for giving up their time A club is place for pople with similar interests to get together and sare ideas if we keep that in mind it keeps things in perspective who knows next year we might even get a puppy class am looking at seeing if any delta trainees are interested in running one and maybe a clicker class but one thing at a time and slowly we go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 snobby i know what you mean some clubs get so caught up in politics they cant see what they are losing out on the thing im always trying to impress at our club is that everyone has somehting to offer and if we treat people with an open welcoming attitude it is surprising what they will bring to the table. Thanx for the reply but I've been bitten once too often!!! In other words, why bother? color=#000000]STUFFEM!!![/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 (edited) SB you have taken this thread way off track, seemingly for your own personal agenda. If you are constantly bitten by other clubs - stop whinging and start your own!!! FWIW, I don't think titles equal a good trainer, especially as far as behavioural problem solving goes. You could have raised one dream puppy and titled it, does that make you a good trainer?? Nuhuh. I also think all instructors should be paid something for their time, even if it's only ten bucks a class. Money talks and everyone wants something for nothing these days...most of them don't appreciate it. It also provides the motivation to those instructors to further their education. Dog Training shouldn't be (virtually) free!! Nothing else is these days!! Mel. Edited October 15, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 why bother i used to feel that way but thn i realised i enjoy being part fo the dog world and things ar changing i guess it depends on how much you enjoy trianing your own dogs i love tkaing mine out every week catching up with friends and swapping ideas ive met great people in the dog world plenty of people do jobs for free my sons footy coach and trianers dont expect to get paid nor his athletics coach he charges them 2 dollars to cover the cost of insurance and hire of facilities thats it. Some people like to share their knowledge and dont expect paymnt in return just seeing someone have success is enouhg for them. Tere are plenty of so called qualified trainers that also have only trianed one or two dream puppies and charge a fortune and give crap advice and tere are those who trin all sorts of dogs to titles who have very good sound behavioural knowledge i think in this world where evrything is becoming expensive its nice to know there are epople out there willing to share without getting paid to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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