dasha

I've got 7 dogs I have used it on and not had ANY problems with vomiting or anything. One may have been a bit quieter the next day but nothing to be concerned about.

Thanks, glad I can be of use at times LOLLablover, I am not working as a handler at present but am still with AQIS at the quarantine station. Are any of your dogs in the Sydney unit? In regards to training scent work in a club environment, contamination is not really the problem to worry about. It would be the experience and knowledge of the trainer first and foremost. Like any club exercise, most of the training is done as homework at home. Clubs would be hard as who would be the one to set targets to give permeation time? All dogs learn at different rates so how much target to put in a box. Some may need HEAPS of target but others may have progressed to a lower level. The area is fine, I mean unless you are trying to find soil as a target and you run your trial on a grass arena, that would be silly but you could use the carpark. Dogs have better noses than we think so other smells are just part of life to a dog and it is the dogs job to pick an odour that means something out of all other odours in life anyway. I mean a male dog can pick the scent of a bitch on heat miles away amongst the smells of neighbours BBQ smells, car fumes blah blah so it really is a matter of isolating an odour that means something to the dog. Dogs that work for big departments are often trained in batches so they are all learning odours in the presence of other dog smells anyway whether its in a shed or paddock.

For competition nose work, passive response is the best way to reduce contamination of the other items used for sniffing and control boxes. A response can really be any change of behaviour that is trained and will be given every time to respond. However for competition it will probably be a sit. Makes it easier for the judge to be sure the dog gave a true response and has made a decision. Hope it goes well for training when you get your DVD's

The reward fron source dog that was working in the field gradually got changed to a bridge and come to handler for a reward. Reward from source was messy, dog was handler dependent and her response would vary greatly depending on what the handler was doing. She was only a reward from source dog as she was supposed to be a toy dog but had limited toy drive but great food drive so handler changed her to food dog herself. Reward form source definitely kept this dog in field longer than if it was left as a toy dog. Yes there is a lot of ways to teach every behaviour we teach our dogs. Just teaching scent detection, the most important thing is proofing the odour so that no matter where it is, in what presentation, your dog will find it when asked. It is very easy to cross train a dog onto something we don't even think about because we can't ask the dog how it knew to alert to that item. That box set up with an dig alert is contaminating that box and marking it as a target box every time. That dog and dogs after that, may very well look for the the box that has target odour paired with scratched wood as the target odour. For that to be a true thing, they need to also have a box that has scratch and bite marks without the target odour. They would also need to put a slobbered on ball in the other boxes as a distraction so it also wan't looking for the odour particles of its own used toy that would also be in that target box. So dogs very quickly can be looking for something else WITH the target odour in order to make them be sure. You need to be able to put pure target odour somewhere to make sure that dog is looking for target odour not what YOU think is the target odour. Active response takes a lot more work as you need to introduce a lot more controls in your runs in order to make the test correct. Whether its competition nose work of field nose work, the scent is the most important, then the way it will be presented. ie in a formal layout, a broad search area, outside, inside or whatever.

Yes but I was only a Detector Dog Handler for 5 years so........................... may not know much about scent work LOL The example I gave about not going crazy about those odours is still relevant to dogs in kennels. A detection dog cannot live in a sterile environment just so it doesn't get exposed to an odour as it can't be rewarded. Quarantine dogs also get exercised in grass yards, the walk in the park. Food reward dogs still get a meal at night. Play reward dogs also get a ball thrown for them at a park. Dogs can discriminate between work and play. They are asked to work and they DO NOT get a rewards for alerting to an odour if it is not in a work environment or search area. There are amnesty bins at the airport for people to put their food/fruit in before they get to the border. Dogs work near those bins but don't get rewarded if they take their handler to it. That would ask for trouble. They are not corrected for noticing it but if they walk past it they will be called past and then directed to search where required. If you rewarded a dog for finding the "mother ship" you will have problems. Doesn't reduce the dogs drive to find the same odours 50 metres away. A good trainer can get a dogs focus and ask for it to still do its job with that distraction. The handler still needs to be able to direct a search. Detection and protection work are 2 different things so the idea that a dog may have to protect the handler without a command comes down to an instinctive response too and also needs to be controlled. Like anything when using a dogs natural inborn instincts, there is a point where instincts are what makes the dog do what it does but training needs to be override that instinct to be able to control the instinct and drive for the behaviour. I have taken 2 VERY good detection dogs home when they retired and not once did they want to take me to my fruit in the fruit bowl, or to a stash of meat in the fridge or a bunch of flowers in the garden. I agree with Erny about those boxes too. I think it more important that a dog is 110% confident on the odour, then work on different presentations, then different presentations in different locations. There is a big problem with controls in that video and I wouldn't be sure that the dog know the target odour in that scenario. I think he know which box has the odour of the scratch/chew marks on it as well as the ball he has already had come down that chute. JMO The training for working blind and relying on the dog to tell us something is there, needs to be so thorough and accurate so that you can trust the dog will tell tell you what you want. Each target odour needs to have the same value and reward history if possible so that you know the dog is actively looking for each odour and will not ignore one in search for another as he has a better reward history for it. A dog also needs to able to alert to an odour in the presence of another at times and be able to relay the message to you that there is another one so not get distracted by playing or getting a food reward, but still be willing to alert to another odour. Yes they can do it. I frequently had my play reward dog having his reward on the conveyer belt when alerting to something in the mail. Even in the middle of a great tug if another mail item went past and he smelt another odour, he would drop the toy and go and dig again in order to get it again. If he was searching and I put the toy on the belt, he would work over it and not touch it as he knew he needed to find something in order to get it. He really understood what the job was, how he would get the toy and really wanted to find stuff to get it. He was a xbred mutt from the pound. He had the best work ethic and was a very good dog. If you have trained the odours right and presentations, you should trust your dog once you have asked him to search. Corrections reduce drive so you ignore wrong responses and reward correct ones. Simple

Feeding from the source will not mean you will get a better response or alert or independent search. It also limits how you can reward your dog. What if you can't access the area he alerts to to give the food to him. This will in fact limit a dogs independent search as the it will soon learn if it finds something in a hard to find place, a reward may not be able to be as good, long etc. If you drop food, it can contaminate the scent area for your dog as well as any others if you are training multiple dogs. Sometimes it is actually worse. You can easily do active response, bridge for alert, and then reward. This can also be used for food dogs or play reward dogs. Training a dog on household items will not cause it to go crazy in the house unless it is poorly trained. A dog should search when asked. Scent detection as a trained behaviour is no different to training a lot of other sport behaviours. You don't see quarantine dogs going crazy outside cause they can smell birds, grass, soil, leaves, bark, the fruit you had for lunch etc. They only alert to odours when they are given a search cue. Teaching a dog to go on a table for agility or obedience exercises doesn't mean its going to jump on the kitchen table just because its a table. Dogs know the difference from when they are working or not IF TRAINED CORRECTLY

Very impressive some of those dogs and handlers. Just as a side Kavik, the dogs we saw getting a reward was a click and throw toy, just praise and throw toy. Then the dog just returned toy and then did another run. Didn't see any tugs used so maybe with your dog, you could use methods like that. Maybe your dog would enjoy that more then trying to make him want to tug. Personally if I didn't get to play a game of tug with my dogs and got results like that.......... well tugging can be lower down the reward scale that other ways.

Andisa their water drinking things are filled with tank water or rain. The only buckets that catch water for them are off the roof of their little shed but their is nothing on the roof there. I have little bites on me too and last night when in their shed preparing the food, I felt a bite and I looked and found a tiny little insect, a bit bigger than a flea. It had a black head and tan wings. I am thinking it may have something to do with it as the dogs scratching the most sleep in the shed there or are the ones in it the most. The horse stands opposite the driveway next to the shed so maybe that it what it is. Iam going to catch one and send it to the entomologists at work to see what it is.

I think a name will come to you. Doesn't have to be named as soon as it arrives home. Just get to know it and name will come. I like a whole range of names. I like short names. I like names that are feminine for girls (usually) or people names, I like unusual names an traditional names. But when it comes time to name one, the criteria can change I have Dash Cricket Abby Tiesha Pip Blondie Jock Lass Have had Jess Sam Bess Pixie Penny Chinook - Chooka Zeke So there is really no theme with them at all. Just what comes to mind

They haven't had the additional flea treatment I got the other day yet as I was going to wait for the Revo and Frontline to wear down a little first. I think it is Advantage so will give it in another week or so. Only one of them got the Frontline and that is because we were staying at someones house and they are paranoid about getting fleas and she was scratching so much I wanted to be sure she didn't have any, even though she had comfortis the week before. They all got Revo when I left the friends farm to ensure no Sarcoptic mange could be brought home. Its not like they get stuff on them all the time. I try not to use it al all if I can help it. They have hardly had a chemical overload with 1 application of Revo and a comfortis tablet. One dog got the frontline as well. The bedding and yards were sprayed when they weren't in them so that I could eliminate fleas. and the dogs weren't back in there till it was dry. Its not a contact allergy. It is related to something else. Her coat has gone brittle, and she has the odour of a dog with allergies. I have had an Atopic dog before and always said if I had another I would not want it to suffer the same so would prob put it to sleep, but this one is too good a dog to contemplate that. She has small red marks on her like bites but there is no visible parasites there. Dermatologists will use multiple chemicals at once too if they are trying to work things out. Each drug has a different way of working so it covers all avenues to eliminate fleas from/mites from the equation. I am wondering if it the mosquitoes or maybe some kind of biting midge such as the ones that cause Queensland Itch in horses. Might put some of the stuff you put on horses on them and maybe put some repella strips up to see if that helps. Most products that are sold for pet use have a pretty good safety margin for use. If it was that potent that you couldn't use a few the occassional time in a dogs life, they wouldn't be able to sell them. I could understand if a dog had a dodgy liver, it may overload it but in a perfectly healthy dog, a topical application should be fine. They were washed in oatmeal shampoo to help soothe the skin. We live on a creek so there is plenty of biting things down there. My horse has also come up with some bite swellings the last few days and some people around have also started to get little bite marks, but no sign of anything that did the biting. Its a mystery

Thanks everyone. I went to another vet today and she got a anti-histamine injection to help with the itchy. She is still on Cephalexin and he gave me some different flea stuff. I think it is advantage. He didn't think the pineapple juice would be causing it so will still give it for now. The other thing I thought of is that I changed some of the other dogs food rather than Advance. The pups are still getting advance but the other dogs went to Supercoat. One of them is scratching too. I am wondering if she is the worst affected as she is "the recycler" and maybe she has allergies to something in it. To be honest it could be that she is allergic to horses or anything and because she eats their poo, she gets a reaction. I am going to swap other dogs back to the orignal food they were on and maybe give her mainly raw stuff for now and see if things settle again. She has been scraped on 2 separate occasions in multiple locations but no sarcoptic mange was found on her or the others. That is also why I put Revolution on them just in case. I am sure that Frontline also kills on contact.

There is plenty of wandering Dew here but is is not consistent with a contact allergy. And they have been in that since 6 weeks old and have only been itching for a few weeks. When they started scratching, we had an outbreak of fleas so that may have been the trigger hence the massive flea control measures. Skin is not red and inflamed like Wandering Dew would do, it is just has little scabs and lumps all over it and some weeping parts. Hoping not to have to go skin specialist but may have to.

I have a 8 month old Border Collie that seems to be really itchy lately. In fact 5 of the 8 dogs are really itchy. They had comfortis 3 weeks ago, then last week had some frontline, then a few days after that they had Revolution (to cover mange) but they are still itchy. 3 of them are just scratching a bit (they usually don't at all) but 1 has scratched all her undercoat out, her coat is brittle and dull. I have taken her to the vet twice now and they have done skin scrapes (all negative) no fleas, but has little lumps and red dots all over her body. She mainly scratches her ribs, and front legs as well as flanks. Her bum area is fairly thin now too. So frustrating. 2 of them are on antibiotics to help with skin infections (prevention) but this little one is still scratching badly. 3 weeks ago they were all bathed, permoxin sprayed in yards and all sleeping areas including beds. That is when Comfortis was given. They are currently fed Advance and have been since they were weaned. They also get mince, lamb necks, mixed bones. The only thing that may have changed in the food department is that I have been putting Pineapple juice on their food at night. Only about a dessert spoon each. Would this cause it? 3 of the dogs I haven't noticed scratching at all. They all swim in creek daily and run in paddocks so it really is hard to eliminate that stuff. But one of the bitches that is scratching has lived her for over a year and she didn't have trouble with this in the past. Their skin is not really red and inflamed or anything but they just scratch. If anyone can think of any suggestions so I can check with the vet when I go back on Wed that would be good. It has not affected her drive to work or play, just she is looking a bit bedraggled and is losing a lot of hair!!!!!

Kavik, I agree with what Vickie is saying. Just be spontaneous with him. I really cringe at your answer of things are not always structured and measured but you still refer each tug game as part of a session.!! Do you ever just for no reason, engage in a game even though it wasn't a planned session. I know sometimes for me if I am hanging my clothes on the line and one of my dogs are there watching, in a short time, I may be playing tug with a sock while "pretending" i didn't want to . So I dangle it in front then when they look, flick it away, then drop it and pretend you didn't want to etc. Or I may be just tidying up and see something that could be played with, so I may end up on floor rolling round with a dog or 2 trying to stop them getting it. The more you make them think its not for them, they want it more. I may pick up a rock and carry it gently like a baby animal in my hands and pretend to introduce it to them. I talk really carefully to them like its very precious and then when they try to poke their nose in, I move it away and pretend to talk to it. (Yes I am crazy BTW) but it makes them SO keen and interested as soon as I pick something up. Vary it each time so its interesting. Mine will play with anything you have. If I found a shoelace, that can be played with. Or a bottle top....... Anything has possibilities...... its how you use it. You don't really need to increase his drive as such, you need to channel it towards something you have so that nothing else matters cause it will be fun. If anyone has a playful interactive dog that likes to tug but the dog gives up, I would say the game isn't fun enough for what the dogs want. If he can make it more fun by running of with it, he will. If you can build his desire to want whatever you have, then you shouldn't need to focus on distraction training as he shouldn't even notice things other than you and what you might have. He shouldn't even notice you going from the back yard to the front yard past his food bowl/bag etc. If he will not get that desire to pass up the food then you know what is more value to him and thats food. Use it.

Every dog is an individual. It may not even notice the cat. And as puppies, cats can easily and swiftly teach that pup not to come too close. I have 7 dogs, 5 Border Collies and 2 Kelpies. Only 1 of the younger ones is interested in the cats. Actually only one. The other puffs up and launches o she gives it a wide berth. The other one just lays there and ignores her, even though she nudges it, stares at him, circles him and is generally annoying. The mother of this dog also is interested in the cat the same way but it is more play than anything. If the cat runs, they do run after him but they wouldn't hurt him I don't think. He has been bitten by the odd dog (fighting over food) so he knows how to quickly put them on the back foot. IMO if you were to get a new BC, if your cat blows up at it and wallops it a few times, let it cop it. You also need to teach it a very good recall so when it does get interested, you can call it back. Sounds like your older dog needs it too. So when your older dog goes near the cat, call him straight off, if he ignores you, be firm. Your the boss. Not all Borders are interested in cats or even moving objects. I am selling a 10 month old cause I find him boring. He works sheep really well and has great instincts. But he is not interested in a ball or tug. He is just not my type of dog. I like the hyper ones (that chase cats lol) He loves food. Is easy to train, gets along with the cats, even when my brother minded him with their cat, he said that the pup looked away from the cat whenever the cat came nearer to check him out. He is scared of cats because he met our one that smacked him first. If you get a Border, just look around first and check out the parents. And like any new puppy, you need to put the one on one time in to be the leader and then it doesn't matter how many dogs you have. I know a guy that has 20 working border collies, and they are all very much in tune with him, not the other dogs. They all come to their name and are happy to do so. He even lets them all out together in the sheep paddock and runs them around but they won't round up the sheep unless he asks them, and some of these dogs are only 4-6 months old.(normally impossible to call off sheep at a distance). It all comes down to the time you put in and the lessons you teach it. When you say your dog is aggressive to the cat, in which way do you mean? Is it to the point if it see the cats it is going to take off after it to catch it or only if it comes near certain places etc.

Like I said......Ridiculous So she doesn't even know if it will work, so she is wanting people to pay $5000 so she can try out her methods.............. In her interest, she should be nearly paying them, or at least do it for free. Its her that wants the results of her experimental learning methods. So if it works out, then she will lower the price to make it more affordable (so why pay now to be a guinea pig) and if it doesn't work out, then she won't do it (so the suckers that pay $5000 have wasted their money) Sounds like a great money making gimick to me. Doesn't ring any "cautious" bells to me. It may be worth the money if you also learn some other gimick like spinning straw into gold............ or turning water into wine. But I don't think those things happen anymore

Yeah look, personally for me, I don't care how good someone is at something, that price is ridiculous. And people that pay it are just as ridiculous IMO I mean there is tens of thousands of dogs that have learnt running contacts, how to weave, how to jump etc way before she came along. And there will be plenty more to follow that don't have handlers that have done this course. And they will still be very competitive. Even if you forked out for this experience, it is no guarantee that you'll win. Every theory and method relies on correct implementation, and this means every one has to interpret things the same and apply the learning the same, so throw a variable in there of a dog. I hope that the lucky 5 people that can afford to go, really get the benefit they are paying for and a happy with their investment. It is really only increasing your learning bank and that is an expensive way to do it.

Is that $5000 per person? How long does the course go for?

Usually 2 of mine are loose on the acreage. the other 5 are split between the dog runs, dog shed or stables depending on weather, how long I will be gone for and how noisy each one is.

Well at this point in time there is no time to train him before we go. I have tomorrow that I am working and then he will come to work with me on Thurs am at 5am and wait til I finish at 2ish and then a 5 hour trip to Dubbo. So hopefully he will toilet some time on Thurs during the day at work so I can drive at ease that he won't spring a leak on the way. Once there, he will just have to hold or burst i'm afraid. He needs to get over it. I am hoping to sell him at a dog auction in 2 months so would like him to be able to concentrate to work rather than be trying to hold his bladder LOL And whoever buys him will certainly not be using any toilet training cue's to get him to piddle. So I would rather him just get over it himself

Thanks for the ideas. Even at home, he will not toilet near the house or on lead. He always races down the back paddock in the bush then comes back when he's done. Then he will play. All the other dogs play first then you think they are done because they have had plenty of time, only to find you start penning them again and then they toilet. Now I know what the trick is I only let 2 out at a time so they toilet then when they are done I can let the rest out.

Hey Kavik, What agency does your friend work for. When is the ad and what type of dog do they want

I have a 7 month old Border Collie pup that i bred and he won't pee when we go places. He seemed fine when younger as I used to take him places all the time and it wasn't an issue then and he would pee etc when he needed to. As he is now older he will just hold on. I first noticed it when I took him away to a dog trial with all the other dogs/pups for a weekend and he only went once (in back of car) over the whole weekend. I walked him , ran him in paddocks, walked him around the blocks off lead to give him any chance he needed when we were away but nothing. Then when I put him back in the ute, he peed. 1st time ever in the cage too I might add. He was 5 months old then. It hasn't been an issue til now as I haven't taken them places for long periods. I took him to work the other night and I had him in the car and let him out for toilet breaks every few hours. He did not pee once. So he had held on from 1pm til 1:30am. Then when we got home, he cocked his leg for ages So I took him to work for the next 3 nights as I thought maybe the next night, once he had been there before, he would be ok. NOPE. He held on for another 10 hours til we got home. This happened 4 nights running. I fed him there, let him loose in carpark, on lawn, in backyard, but no pee. So last night he again held on for 13 hours til we got home. Now the problem is that I am going away for 4 whole days and taking the dogs with me so am worried about him holding his bladder for too long then ending up with a UTI or something when we are away in the country. Any suggestions on how to get this silly dog to relieve himself when not at home. He eats and drinks fine away but nothing else

Turns out one of my Kelpies is actually doing her job. Last night about 2 am, there was some voices up the top of our driveway. Dash started barking as dogs do when something is not normal. Then I could hear footsteps coming down the steep cement driveway between our place and next door. Dash's bark was getting more intense, then the deep throat sounds of her growling and lunging at someone for a few mins. It seemed to get louder and more intense at times. (Usually when you try to chase her off, she comes back worse) I was about to get out of bed to go and see who/what it was but decided that it sounded like she had it all under control. There was no protesting sounds from Humans so I left her to it. We live on acres so I figured it is best for her to let possible intruders know she is around to watch the place in the dark. Either that or it was the next door neighbours getting home late and trying to sneak in quietly. She was then quiet so I figured she had put them off or recognised the neighbours and that they weren't coming to our house so she left them alone. She is very good. Even though we have no fences between us and the neighbours and our boundary is only 2 metres from our house, she doesn't go over the line to guard our place. She will just follow up on our side and just always put herself between the people and our place/things. Apparently even people she knows, she will not let them on our back or front verandah, near cars, stables, horse float if I am not home. But she lets people in the dog shed so i can get people to come and feed her when I am away. She has it all sorted.

Well when you get it from him, part of the game is giving it back. Like I said, some dogs love tug, some love fetch, some love parading it. Each is different. Its like some kids like monkey bars, some like riding the bike, some like WII and some like to play computer things. Maybe that is just the kind of dog he is. He is a Kelpie. They are bred to be an independent work dog. Some lines just just don't have that built in desire to interact WITH someone. They work FOR someone. They are asked to do a job, they go do it themselves. They are part of a team that works independently of the other team member. You may very well go and get another Kelpie and have the same problems. You really need to get lines that have proven dogs that are TEAM players ie, want to be with you and interact with you. Get one from a stud where other sport people have got them from that have the desires you want. Maybe you could post a link to dog that is playing tug/getting tug reward that is what you are looking to achieve with your dog and then a link of what your currently at with your dog so that readers can get an idea of what you goal is and be able to help you get there. An address is no good without a map. And a map is no good without a destination. DId you know that when lost, people generally go around in circles looking for their way out. Same in dog training IMO