Lab_Rat

Our kelpie does this "dance" too, but after having a wee. And she likes to wait till the ridgie has wee'd first, so she can wee on top then do her little "scritching thing" (as i call it :p ).....mad kelpies! She also started doing this at obedience classes, before we started when all the dogs were gathered around in a group, she would also give a little yodel as well...Dunno what any of this was about at all, but everyone thought it was very cute RG

:D Thanks Merriment, I know how hard it is to organise stuff! If it doesnt clash with my shifts, I will definitely be there, with dog! RG

Dont want to sound like a broken record, but is there any more news on Steve visiting yet? Perhaps we need a bigger bribe? :D :) How many participants do we need for a workshop? Do hope it goes ahead. RG

Wow, glad I popped into this thread! I am so glad you are getting somewhere with you pooch deelee2. Ive also been having dog-probs, but of a different sort in a different thread, and have so far been very impressed with those who have offered advice! Its not an easy thing this "staying calm" thing, but by the looks of it, its working for you! Good on you for sticking at it. Its such a great feeling when something finally comes together and works! Now I have to get of my butt and do the same thing, as my RR girl likes nothing than hauling me down the road, and like Russ_Rens hound pulling sideways to some wonderful smell on the side of the road. Damn hounds! I cannot believe how strong these dogs are, maybe I should get a dog cart :D :rofl: Thanks MarkS for your training tips. I had thought Id been doing this training correctly, trying to keep the dog from pulling, but I read something in your version about changing direction as soon as the dogs attention is off you! Now that makes more sense!! I will be trying that next time Im out. God I love this forum I cant believe how much I learn each time I log on! RG

Just wanted to give a bit of an update on my two! At the moment they are going quite well. There have been no confrontations inside (which are the ones that worry me, as to me they are much more about territory/protection issues and always seem to be near a human), but no real serious outside barneys either. Neither of them are allowed on the bed, on the lounge or on kitchen chairs AT ALL anymore! Wandys fave seat was at the table, on a chair. Not anymore! They have a mat each in the loungeroom where they are put and told to stay, which 90% of the time they do. They have always eaten after us, so thats not a problem. They still want to get up on the bed in the mornings and trying to convince OH that its just not happening at the moment isnt easy, but they have stayed on the floor so far. They still get funny (not haha, but beady of the eyes and alert!) after their night time meal, but I am getting that sorted too. They eat seperately (always have), but I hang around and pick up their bowl as soon as they are finished. I also put Zola on a lead, as she tends to want to follow Wandy everywhere and hassle, so I have control of her! There has been a couple of episodes of Zola going up to Wandy, who then starts growling! Luckily I have been there each time and told Zola to back off, and lo and behold she has listened, and LOOKED at me too, so I know she has understood! So, at this point in time I am happy with how they are. I have a feeling that Wandy is going to be harder to convince than Zola that WE are the boss, and she doesnt need to be how she is anymore. I feel that Zolas actions are more teenage rebellion, and its a big game to her(I could be way off, but thats what I sense), but Wandys are full on, serious leadership issues which I fear we have ingrained over time, unknowingly! Im reading Cesar again, cant believe how much I am picking up this time and how much i missed previously. I am really hoping that K9 Force do venture over to Perth, I know all my family (2 and 4 legs) could do with some training! So thanks again to all who gave me some advice or reassurance, you have helped immensely! RG

Hi All! Thanks for your stories and help, made me feel quite a bit better about the whole situation! They are both going ok, and like I said in the first post their behaviour is only intermittent, but I know if I don't do something NOW, it will only get worse! Neither of them have been on the bed at all for the last two days & nights. Neither of them have been on the lounge either, although I must mention, they very rarely get up there with me, only by themselves..........anyway! They both have an individual bed on the lounge room floor, where they are put and told to stay! They are both sitting near me, and next to each other at the moment! K9, thanks so much for you comments, they have made alot of sense - especially to do with Wandy, I really see now thats what her behaviour is! Duh! (I am blonde ). I read the triangle of temptation a while ago, and will read it again. In fact I think I even printed it out! Haven't heard of the NILIF program tho, will definitely look at it.The last point will be the hardest, the tyrant bit that is, but in order to have two sane dogs in the house i will be going there..... I will also drop you an email. Thanks again everyone, its nice to know you're not alone in such a confusing, frustrating predicament!

Thanks for your words of encouragement and advice. You have all helped, even if just by your kind words! It took me quite a while to gather the guts to put up my thread and then to type it through the tears of frustration and upset-ness (yeh i know theres no such word, cant think of the correct one atm). Thanks BP, I have read Merriments entire thread, what a joy for them to have three dogs that will now get along. Just glad my two arent that bad yet . Excuse my ignorance, but what is an e-collar? And how does it work? Man, if I could just get my inner leader to pop her head out, it would be fantastic. So much about dog training has clicked, but the assertive, calm, confident leader bit is still lost on me. I try, by using stern, firm commands, not letting them get away with too much stuff, but its obviously not enough. Grrrrrr, I feel so inept and frustrated, a bit like trying to learn trigonometry, or understand how the info is layed down on a CD, my brain just wont do it. (And no, I dont want to know about the CD!) Many thanks for reading and helping! RG

Is there any news on when the K9 workshop is being held? If anyone has read my new thread, you can appreciate that I feel "the sooner the better"! I had quite forgotten about it, till i just saw this thread and it jolted my hopeless memory. Now I am itching to see what date they maybe in Perth, so I can organise my shifts around it. I am gonna try my heart out to attend. RG

Thanks Miranda. I leave no toys or food with them when are penned, and at this stage theres no real way of keeping them separate. As we have the younger bitch on breeders terms, she wont be spayed until she is bred or the breeders decide otherwise. I have not had an entire bitch before either. I can understand her behaviour, but I just dont get Wandys? Thanks again, RG

After talking to my breeder/trainer who is hours away and cant physically help me, I am hoping that someone out there in DOL land has perhaps been in a similar situation with their dogs, or just has some advice. Some background on the dogs in question. We have a 5yo sterilized Kelpie bitch, Wandy and an 18mo unsterilized Rhodesian Ridgeback bitch, Zola. Mostly they get along fine, play together and are yarded together when we are at work. They have their own beds, but arent so close they will sleep together. Wandy was attacked when a pup, in our car by a large crossbred dog. Since then, she doesnt particularly enjoy other dogs company, especially if they are bigger than her. She loves humans, is very trainable and would do anything for a human. Generally she is a very happy little dog, she loves a game and loves "rounding up" the sheep and horses on the outside of their paddock. Zola is our 2nd ridgeback, quite an assertive and stubborn dog, but also a very happy, and playful girl. I am having to learn to be more assertive than she, something quite foreign to me as Ive never had a bossy, independent dog before. She show signs of being quite protective in the car, growling at strangers who come near, by the car. She is reprimanded for this vocally and is not as bad as she used to be, usually just a grumble now, which I will tolerate if it doesnt become more. So here is our dilemma. Wandy gets into these strange "moods", where especially after their tea, she seems to be anxious, nervous and on edge. She will come into the loungeroom to sit down, but wants to sit on top, or as close to me as possible. If Zola comes anywhere near her she will growl. She also averts her eyes, as if she is scared of Zola. It appears Zola sees this as some sort of challenge so she will rush her, barking and growling. They usually have what I call a mexican standoff, where no biting takes place and after a short amount of time one of them retreats. Wandy is then very apprehensive of Zola for quite a time afterwards, understandably!! Last night however was sightly different. I was laying on the loungeroom floor, with Wandy at my feet. When Zola, who had been asleep on her bed came in, Wandy started growling and Zola just went for her. I leapt up and yelled at Zola to get out, which fell on deaf ears. I then picked up one of their toys and whacked Zola a few times with it to try and get her off. She was standing over Wandy with her jaws over over her neck. Unfortunately neither of them had their collars on, so it was difficult to drag Zola off, although I did in the end and OH and I spent the next few minutes yelling at dogs to get to their beds. Not the most useful behaviour I know, but it was quite scary! Zola got a couple of whacks, and was sent to bed. No blood was spilt, but I know Wandy was psychologically bleeding . Before going to bed I took them both out for a wee. Zola is always on lead outside at night, as we live on 5 acres with the odd roo coming through. So, Zola had her wee, then Wandy has to wee over Zolas, fine. On the way back to the house Zola decided to leap at Wandy, dont know whether it was a continuation of the previous incident, but I didnt want it to be. So I pushed Zola to the ground and started yelling at her what a witch she was, blah, blah, blah etc. I didnt let her up for about 30seconds, until I felt she had "heard" me. She then acted very submissive, went straight to her bed and stayed there all night. Usually they will try and sneak up onto our bed. They are still a bit wary this morning, Wandy not really wanting to be near "Killer", which I can quite understand. So, my questions are; Can anyone shed any light on whats going on behaviourly/psychologically, mainly with Wandy? What can I do to lessen 1). Wandys behaviour? 2). the attacks? 3). Zolas reactiveness? What can "I" do to be more in charge of what the hell is going on with my dogs? I understand I need to be a better leader, and all that goes with it, but I am obviously missing something for me to not be able to see these incidents coming, how to stop them and for Zola to be so reactive. I dont wish to be flamed for my above actions, I know I need more training, as do my dogs, thats why Im here. What Im after is some constructive help, any training contacts in the Bunbury WA area, and just to know that Im not as useless as I feel right at this moment. I find the whole aggressive dog thing very distressing, and spent most of last night not sleeping because I was so upset. I worry that Zola will turn into some killing machine if this is not nipped in the bud. My OH also feels there should be some instant cure, I try to tell him it doesnt work that way, but I dont think he understands. So, anyone out there, Help Please RG

I am interested, for myself rather than my dogs! I want to learn more about being a better leader, and develop more confidence in being that leader. ...................Would also love to learn what training in drive is................... Being a shift worker and living 3 hours from Perth may be a disadvantage though! Dont get many weekends off. But please put me on the list. RG

My ridgie girl is on a diet of RC Exclusive Proteins dry food. The proteins are somehow derived from vegetables. She has a suspected animal protein allergy, which results in diarrhea and vomiting almost constantly. Since being on this food now for 7 weeks she has not vomited and solid poos!!! She is also an itchy dog, but i suspect that is a seasonal, pollen type thing. Antihistamines seem to control this ok. This week I have introduced lamb, to join a few innocuous veges, pumpkin and carrots in her diet. She loves carrots and has them instead of bones. After a couple of weeks on the lamb i will introduce another animal protein, to join the lamb and see how she responds. I'm kinda thinking she will react badly to roo and chicken. Just a hunch form what she was raised on. Our Kelpie on the other hand, seems to able to eat anything, anytime. Doesn't have any itchies, bald spots, or any other signs of intolerance or allergy! Lets just hope it stays that way. I often think about the whole food intolerance/allergy thing and wonder if it has come about from generations of dogs being fed manufactured food? I have just bought Dr Clare Middles new book, titled Real Food for Dogs and Cats. Dr Ian Billinghurst has written the forward, with the preface written by Dr Rosemary Hood. Haven t read much of it yet, but what I have read makes alot of sense. I am hoping to have our two on a complete unprocessed diet sometime this year, and it will be interesting to see just how well the ridgie does on it. It seems to create alot of work having an allergic dog, from trying to find the cause to then trying to remove the cause from our dogs environment, if at all possible. I find it encouraging to see that a more vets out there are acknowledging the use of holistic treatment together with "western" vet medicine. I have never been comfortable with the use of drugs to simply treat or mask the symptoms in my animals, but rather want to seek out the cause and possibly remove it before it has any affect. I know that sometimes there is no other way. Perhaps we should start a thread dedicated solely to allergic dogs, so we can provide support and help for each other. I know that sometimes i would like to chat about whatevers going on with my girl, but really don't want to start yet another thread! Does anyone else think this would be a useful thing? RG PS, I do hope everyones hounds are doing ok. peigirl, crusader and ptolomy, is WA the allergy state or what?

Your poor dog and poor you! I hope the visit to the vet can perhaps rule out anything nasty! Perhaps you could try rescue remedy when she starts having her anxiety attacks (that is what it sounds like to me, the panting and eyes "not there"). Also remember not to unconsciously encourage her anxiousness by trying to sooth her. Its hard not to I know when your dog is so terrified of something, and you dont know what that scary thing is! Dont forget also the sense of hearing a dog has, I cant even begin to understand how acute it is. We trained our kelpie to bark at thunder, to try and keep the anxiety out of her head to begin with. Its seem to work, in fact anything we feel she may be afraid of, we try and get her to investigate in a "get-it" type way. A few years ago we had lightning directly strike the farm house we were living in. It happened around midnight and it was the second scariest thing I have lived through. I had two cats and a ridgeback in bed with me (and my OH of course ) I am only just getting used to thunder and lightning again, but I think I may have instilled some of my fear into our new ridgie. Im sure training will help her, even if it can help her understand when things go wrong, you are her safety zone. RG

Love your posts Lilli! Wow. Im glad we only have two dogs. I dont think i could deal with group dynamics atm. I really agree with you about the sex of a dog being way down the list of importance of what can spark a fight. It really is all about temperament and rank. Our two girl have the odd mexican standoff, and I try to difuse them, but its not always successful. It seems the kelpie is top dog most of the time, but she has this "thing" where I think she feels threatened if cornered, and starts to growl at the ridgie. That arcs the ridgie up, who is a total sh*tstirrer! If the ridgie is not distracted or removed from the situation then a spat is on the cards. Funnily enough, since the ridgie has been on heat the kelpie is alot more tolerant, and freindly! Hormones perhaps? They certainly keep me on my toes, as they both like teasing and testing each other. But I dont have any problems when they are yarded together (touch wood!). We had a bit of a dog fight at obedience training the other night, nothing hugely serious, but it sure put the wind up me! I thought I was gonna be sick! And my dog wasnt even involved! RG ETA shouldve mentioned too, our dogs have rules in the house too, not super strict but enough to keep them from thinking they run the joint. My visitors are usually pretty good with our rules, although kids are a bit hard to get through to!

Ooooops, sorry! Next time I'll leave it to those in the know! ;) Thats wot you get for living in the bush - god I feel like such a bumpkin! Thanks settrlvr, at least I now where I can get some good vet advice for big dogs! Good luck again, sahara RG

Hi, Im in the SW of the state, about 2hrs south of Mandurah, so dont know about vets around there or the surgery your poor dog has to undergo. But my first thought was Murdoch Veterinary Hospital. They have lots of specialists there, so I think thats where Id start. Good luck with you baby! RG

Itchy Dog Owners Unite! ;) Its a hard one aint it! My first suggestion would be to have a vets opinion (a good, holistic one if you know of one), as different areas of itchiness can relate to different causes. Could your dog be reacting to the flea collar? Having one itchy and one "normal" dog, I find it very frustrating sometimes to deal with. Absolutely nothing seems to affect our kelpie, (except her annoying sister ), but my poor ridgeback girl is the itchy queen! At the moment she is on an elimination diet, but still has itchy front paws and chin. She also chews her toe nails, although I don't know if this is related. My vet recommended fish oil capsules to help relieve itchiness, my girl has 6 per day, but at this stage I don't know if they're helping. My sister swears by them for her dog. I am of the opinion that it is better to find the cause and get rid of that if at all possible, than to just treat the symptoms. Because itchies are difficult to pin down, it seems that vets (the ones i have dealt with over the years) are happier to sell you drugs that deal with the symptoms, rather than find the real cause! I am determined to find out why my girl is itchy all the time, even if I have to travel further afield and try new vets! I hope you find a cause for your poor dogs itchies, its so upsetting to have them scratching all the time and not be able to fix it for them! Good luck, RG

Since we stopped feeding roo meat, we dont have to have regular evacuation of the house whilst watching nighttime tv. :cheer: :cheer: RG

I have to beat her to the feed shed, as she will get her head into the horse carrots and wont want to get out! When I'm making up the horse feeds she has a carrot to keep her occupied, other wise she ends up with pellets and chaff all over her head! She is a complete nutter when it comes to carrots, she loves cauliflower and broccoli too. Too weird! Back to the Topic! How useful is the Intra-Dermal Skin Testing? And is that what is carried out before desensitization injections are given? I have heard from a few different sources that they can be fairly vague (the tests that is), and the desensitization jabs aren't always successful? Anyone had any joy with them? What I'd also like to know is How/Why on earth does a dog become allergic/sensitive to animal proteins? It seems to becoming more and more common. RG

Hi. My girl is on an elimination diet at the moment. After months of intermittent vomiting and diarrhea, and lots of itching and lumps in her ears, and then a blood test the vet suggested she may be allergic/intolerant to animal proteins. She has been on the RC Exclusive Protein Dry food for two weeks today. She hasnt vomited, her itching is decreasing, and she has solid poos! Before they would start out solid, but end very soft if not runny, but it is so nice to watch my dog have a solid poo! (Yeh, I know its a charming subject!). She has to be on this food exclusively for 4-6 weeks, then I am to gradually introduce one animal protein at a time. Hopefully there will be on meat that she isnt reactive to as I dont want her to be on dry food (vegetarian dry food at that! Poor dog needs meat!) for the rest of her life. The blood test Zola had initially was to check her red blood cells. These were elevated - which indicated either parasites or protein allergy (I'm sure quite a few other things as well, but with her symptoms and the results I can only assume my vet knows what she is talking about!). So she was wormed, treated for giardia and retested. Still not normal. Still vomiting and not nice poos. It will be interesting to see what eventuates with her diet and digestive system and her itching. All I can suggest to others is to try an elimination diet, but you have to be extremely strict - NO snacks etc., or theres no point. I am giving my girl whole carrots to chew on when the kelpie gets a bonio or other treat. Luckily she loves them and eats every little bit! CM, lets know how you go, and I will try and update you with how Zola is going. Its so heartbreaking to see you dog itchy, with stomach upsets and other probs. RG

Aaaah! It must be fate! I havent been on DOL for a while - very busy working, but tonight I find two threads that I needed to find! So thank you to the authors! My RR girl also has anal gland problems. Not huge ones, one gets over full and starts leaking if she hasnt had lots of the right food, or if she has had a tummy upset with the runs (heh, heh....the other thread!). Yummy when she gets excited and oozes anal gland fluid everywhere! :D My wonderful vet has shown me how to express the anal glands, I have tried once, but whimped out - didnt want to hurt my girl! She also mentioned removal as a last resort, but after reading what others have been through, no way! I will endeavour to become an "expressing queen" like mini! I will also try psyllium husks and/or pumpkin in my girls dinner. Shes been good for a while, but I know when the poo gets soft and skinny, it doesnt do its job of emptying those anal glands! What a loverly conversation starter :D :rolleyes: RG

I've singled this part of your post out, RG ..... but what a great post overall. And this part. The "respect" you speak of RG is more likely to be the "love" a dog feels, if we can guess at interpreting in a non-anthropomorphic way. Many people don't 'get' that, and 'tis where they go wrong ..... ETA: Kudos to your dog's breeder for giving you these words. Wow! Thanks Erny. Yes, Ive only just learned about the whole "anthropomorphic" thing, and how damaging it can be with our dogs! RG

Its good to see that were not all sheep! I enjoy watching both Cesar and Jan working with dogs, but I think ( and this is only my opinion) that its because the pair of them have that "thing" that most of the rest of us mere mortals only dream of having! I think like with most training (of any animals), they have their +'ve and -'ves. And what I percieve to be those + and - things, others will see as their - and +'ves. Not everything works for everyone, which would make for a pretty boring existence. I am not even close to being a dog trainers a$$ :rofl:, but having a rambunctious, independent, smartalec ridgeback (my first rr was lulling me into a false sense of knowledge by being the perfect dog, Pffft) I am certainly learning what it means having to be an effective leader! And that I need to be that leader ALL the time not just when i can be bothered. Unless I am calm and assertive, the big red dog does what it pretty well likes! When I lose it, she does her own thing, and I dont blame her. Who wants to take any notice of an idiot human yelling and carrying on. I have only just "got it" in the last few weeks! Talk about thick. It came to me one night while I was trying to get to sleep, thinking about a horse we are selling who has been trained almost 100% with Parelli Natural Horsemanship, with a bit of Monty Roberts chucked in. It was like getting a whack across the back of the head! I got this image in my head of me and said horse in a rather difficult situation we encountered a while ago, which included a road, alpacas and a double trailered bIg truck. Somehow I remained calm throughout the entire episode, and no-one got hurt! It was after this vision I suddenly realised, and envisioned, my dog needs a "rock". She needs me to be calm, coz if were both being nutters who knows what to do? Just like the horse training. I hope this doesnt seem too OT, or too "airy-fairy", but I get the feeling that people think that being that leader that everyone talks about is dead easy. Its so not! Until your brain (or maybe subconsious) "gets" it, its so difficult. Jeeez, now Im sounding like some eedjit evangilist! Sorry! Another thing I have learned, from my breeder. It is far better to have your dog respect, then love you, rather than just love you without respect. Now Ive typed all this, Im a bit apprehensive to press the "add reply" button. I dont want to get shot down in flames for my inarticulate opinions and lack of knowlegde. Maybe this will make sense to someone out there, I know I love reading others opinions and ways.....Here goes.. RG

Wow, I would love to come along and watch! But I have just consulted my diary, and there is a big day of Obedience Trails in Bunbury that day! As it is one of my few weekends off I had already marked this event to go and watch. Hope its a great day, and you get enough interest. RG

Ive just read the posts i could find previously on phantom pregnancies, but was unable to find the info i was after. My RR bitch had her first heat in May, so its about 11-12 weeks since. She had huge teats, which have not reduced in size and a couple are now producing a small amout of milk. I am wondering how common this is in dogs, is there a reason for concern and if there is or should be any veterinary treatment? Its not worrying me too much as she seems fine in herself and hasnt started nesting or any other strange behaviour. Any one out there with some first hand experience? :D RG