huski

I'm at work.. Oh noes! I spent my birthday at work last month too :D Hopefully when you get home tonight you can get right on the

Happy birthday PF! Hope you have a lovely day

Love that pic Nik! The expression on her face is priceless!

I remember saying a similar thing to you not too long ago (that it's not how the dog gets there, drive is drive, it's the same process) and you vehemently disagreed with me No, I vehemently disagreed that food drive was the same as prey or play drive. However, how they got there is a moot point when all you are trying to do is identify whether they are "in drive" or not. It's NOT a moot point if you care about which drive you are training in/using as a reward. Which you should, because as we know, not all drives were created equal. Eating a meal ain't the same as playing with a friend. That was what I was so vehement about, and why I was arguing that it did matter which drive you were using even if you were at the same "level" of motivation or arousal. But there's no point discussing anything with you because you routinely ignore what I say and substitute my points with the points you think I'd make and argue against those instead. It makes me very angry and mean-spirited. Sure Corvus... it's all me My point was that a dog in food drive and a dog in prey drive can look the same. That ultimately they are still in drive, irregardless of how you got them there. But anyway...

I remember saying a similar thing to you not too long ago (that it's not how the dog gets there, drive is drive, it's the same process) and you vehemently disagreed with me

but how many beagles dont have colour over both of their eyes? isnt that what gets them? What gets them is that she's tan and white instead of tri colour. Clown faces aren't that unusual, I think if she was a tri with a clown face people would still recognise her for a beagle more easily. Most people think the colour is really pretty and unusual, so it's not a bad thing, just funny that people don't know what she is even when she's standing next to a tri and they look the same

I don't get insulted or upset when people misindentify my dog's breeds, but I do find it annoying when people talk about their breed (or what they think their breed is) with total arrogance and ignorance. For example - the douche bag at the hydrobath who told me, in front of a huge line of people, that huskies were "the most common breed that kills and attacks children" and when I asked if he'd seen the stats for dog bites/attacks, because he was incorrect, he went on a massive tirade that my dog was savage and it wasn't his fault but just how he was because of his breed Poor Micha was doing nothing but standing politely next to me, he is the sweetest dog with the best temperament. Generally when people get my breed wrong I have a bit of a giggle and happily tell them all about the breed

Beagles are pretty common and most people easily identify them, but not Daisy - I get asked what she is all the time, even though tan and whites are pretty common in the breed. Recently I was at the park and there was another (tri coloured) beagle nearby and a person pointed it out and said - "Now I know that one's a beagle, but I don't know what that is (points to Daisy)". Poor Daisy, she always gets asked if she's a crossbreed I've also been asked if my grey and white Siberian is a GSD, on more than one occasion!

Daisy does this too, when she's really excited. Sometimes her ears get caught backwards in the process, very cute

I think when you visit a place such as a dog park, it's not all about you and your dogs....it's about the behaviour of every dog there. And the lowest common denominator will be the one that behaves the worst and that's the one you need to watch out for, especially if your own dog is well behaved. Your dog might not be a resource guarder, but other dogs might and as you entered the park with food and proceed to give it to *a* dog (your dog), a die hard resource guarder that's wormed it's way in by your side might start to guard what it sees as rightfully his. Yes I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean that it's ok for those dogs to behave that way or that they should be in the dog park in the first place. If you know your dog is a resource guarder you need to be vigilent that they never create issues for other people or dogs. If someone or their dog is bitten by another dog simply for giving their own dog a treat, the dog that bit them is going to be in big trouble if reported to the council. Of course I am a realist and don't trust people or dogs I don't know, which is why I rarely ever go into the dog park.

I mainly ignored them. I don't really feel like it was my place to correct them, although I did push one away when he pushed against me. Yes and that's the reason I so rarely use them (apart from DOL meets). The only reason I went in today was because it wasn't busy and the only people in there were people who I knew and whose dogs I knew (bar a couple of dogs I haven't met before, but who I watched from the other side of the fence for 5-10 minutes before going in - and yes the particularly naughty dogs were the ones I didn't know). It would be nice to be able to use the dog park for something other than a free for all, to practice recalls etc, but like I said earlier I am a realist so I wasn't surprised by what happened today.

Which is generally why I never use dog parks in the first place - because I don't trust owners or dogs I don't know. I do feel very strongly that if a dog is going to resource guard they shouldn't be there in the first place. I know my dog is not a resource guarder and does not display aggression over food. I don't however think it's fair that dog parks can't be used by people who want to train with or play with their dogs. My dog knows that begging people for food doesn't work, because I am the only one who will reward her with food, I don't let other people treat her I understand that other dogs aren't trained the same way, BUT I don't think it's appropriate to let your dog constantly harrass/jump/mouth another person for food irregardless of where you are. I put the food away once I realised I had 6-7 dogs clambering around but on the other hand, dogs parks IMO are not just a free for all for people who want to let their dogs run around doing what they like - however I realise that the vast majority of people don't have effective control over their dogs which is why I generally don't use them.

Macka, the begging didn't bother me so much apart from a couple of dogs who followed me around the park jumping/pushing me more or less the entire time. Their owners didn't attempt to call them away once. If I see Daisy begging someone for food I recall her immediately. I would be mortified if she jumped up on someone for food or harrassed them consistently. These dogs were friendly and I never go into a dog park expecting any of the dogs to be well behaved, because the reality is that many aren't. I was just curious if it is accepted in dog parks that if someone comes in with food, it's fair game for other dogs to beg for it. I freely admit that selfishly it would be nice to be able to take my dog into the off leash to do some distraction training, but I'm a realist, so generally I'll train her on the other side of the fence

whoops, double post

I will preface this by saying I rarely ever use dog parks, so this isn't really an issue for me. I'm curious to know what DOLers think in this situation. Today on our walk I took Daisy into the dog park, as it wasn't busy and I actually knew the dogs in the park and knew they were friendly. Daisy really needed a run around a chance to have a bit of a scent. I had my treat pouch and training treats on me as we always find time for a training session on our walks. I thought while I'm here, I might try and do a bit of distraction work and call Daisy to me or ask her to get into heel position, really basic stuff. But any time I called Daisy to me I would look down and have a group of 5-6 dogs around me, clambering for food. A couple of dogs in particular would follow me around and harrass me for food by jumping/slobering/mouthing etc. They were friendly, but I had to give up on trying to reward Daisy for anything or ask her for anything because I couldn't get the treats to her, as the other dogs would push in or push her out of the way. So for those who use dog parks, do you find this behaviour ok? Is it accepted at your dog park that if someone comes in with food, all the dogs in the park will beg for some the entire time they are there? I do expect these things to happen at the park (among other things) which is why I rarely go in there. I would recall Daisy if she went to beg other people for food, but because I almost always have food on me, she doesn't tend to do that (execpt for donuts ).

This is what I see in Annie when I train her in drive – that desperation, she would do absolutely anything to get the ball. The adrenalin is pumping and it takes all her effort to control herself and work before getting the reward. When she is working, it's only me, her and the ball - nothing else exists. For example we've just started recalls and she explodes out of the sit/drop position so fast that she comes barrelling into me (we’re working on that!). TID allows her to achieve a level of intensity that she otherwise wouldn’t. LOL I used to have the same problem! Love that enthusiasm!! And as far as problems go, it's a good one to have

Bedazzled, I certainly realise how experienced you are when it comes to obedience comp, so don't get me wrong, I think inexperienced newbies like myself have a lot to learn from people like yourself I only described how we would use remote rewards because you made a point of saying that you can't have food rewards just outside the ring. When I said I would leave food for Daisy outside the ring, I didn't mean literally outside. I meant a distance away, like next to her crate. I also use her pack drive when training, but when we finally do start trialling she will work the entire time in food drive. Sure I will play/praise her in between exercises, but I see no need to train her to work purely for play/praise when I can train her to work in food drive with a remote reward. I also recognise that her breed is not one that you see in obedience often and that she's not a dog that will give me all she's got purely for play/praise. I've seen working dogs with exceptionally high pack drives, they will flip over just to get a pat, Daisy is just not one of them. She's a beagle and if I didn't train her primarily in food drive she will quickly lose interest in favour of scenting. Training in drive is not just about the reward as Seita's excellent post above described, but trainnig your dog in a heightened state of arousal, using a method that gives them a chemical reward (a release of endorphins). It was just an example I posted of what a dog in food drive looks like, by my definition. That she's only working for a short period of time and that just about any dog would display the same behaviour for it's dinner (she'd already had her brekky when I filmed that this morning, so it was just a treat I'd dropped in her food bowl) isn't the point. The reason I shared the clip was to demonstrate what a dog in drive looks like to me - alert, highly aroused, focused, etc. A dog in drive is going through a motor pattern in their brain. They react to a trigger that gets them into drive and they learn to respond to commands in drive to achieve drive satisfaction. The clip I posted of Daisy is the most basic example of a dog complying to a command in drive to get that satisfaction. Here's another clip of what I consider to be an example of drive;

I see the difference in the dog's body language, in their desperation and drive for the food, their focus etc. When Daisy is in (what I call) food drive, she has 110% focus on me, she's alert, her eyes are sharp, every response to a command is faster and sharper. As Dogdude put it, there's a desperation there to get the reward. When she's simply working for food exchange, she's interested, but the focus and desperation isn't there. When she's in food drive, she will practically throw herself to the ground when I give the 'down' command, if it's food exchange her response is slower. She's not in that heightened state of arousal she gets to when she's working in drive. You see it with dogs who aren't particularly food driven too. Sure, they'll take the food you give them, but they look like they are taking it cos it's there, and don't have that desperation and focus.

Bedazzled, I'm not sure we can put food or toys right outside the ring here either. All the dogs I know who train in drive with remote rewards at trials do so with the reward quite a distance away. It's all in how you train it :D Drive is maintained in the ring and in between exercises, because that is how you train it. You can see in Seita's trialling videos that Ella maintains that same focus and drive in between exercises without Seita having to do much with her. Food is a drive, and you can see the difference between a dog in food drive and a dog who is simply working for food exchange.

You're moving the toy a lot slower than Kavik or Seita do - I wonder how much faster and more into it Kivi would get if you put some real movement in the tug and made the game faster.

Shell, that pic of Zero reminds me of this old pic of Micha: TWINS!

Here's Daisy giving an example of K9's Triangle of Temptation program. She is working in food drive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7mqImDNPRI

It shouldn't really matter if it is, in terms of the people who let their dogs interrupt the training class. Off lead parks require owners to have control over their dogs - just because it's an off leash, does not mean it's a free for all and that owners can let their dogs do as they please. Some people are really dense Willow, one of the parks I train Daisy at often isn't an off leash park (one reason we go there!) and yet you'll get people letting their off leash dogs run up to us, interrupting our training session and definitely not under effective control.

You mean she's Steve's Training In Drive pin up girl!! PMSL! She sure is Part of Daisy's training involves sitting her in front of the computer and showing her your utube channel

Ella's just a DOL star Seita