huski

Agree with Huski. Like you said Erny, it's all about getting them addicted to the game first!

Pete, you can also train in food drive if you have a dog who has a higher food drive than prey drive (like my dog). When I first started TID it was all about the game, I didn't introduce commands (bar our 'ready to work' cue) for quite some time. Building drive is hugely important before you go on to introducing commands or training outside of your back yard.

I utilise her pack drive and rev her up between exercises without giving her food, but when it comes to trialling I will always have her working in food drive. Could I get her to work for praise? I could to a degree but why use that at a trial instead of food when I can get so much out of her by working her in food drive ETA: I don't mean I won't ever utilise her pack drive (playing, praise, playing a physical game) just that I won't use it instead of food drive. ETA2: If I went to the park without any food I simply wouldn't work her in drive. I couldn't do the training I do without it.

It's hard with Daisy as it's actually hard not to have her in drive whenever food is around. This morning she wasn't in drive when I gave her the dried biscuit because she'd just been fed, been sleeping and been woken up to have her ears cleaned. And I made effort to ensure I didn't give her any sort of indication that we were going to be TID. If the dog is a high drive dog it can be hard to turn them off, as they have a lower threshold and therefore go into drive easily. Daisy has a very low threshold to food

See this is a conversation you'll have to have with K9 Force when he's up in Adelaide Daisy will learn to work away from her food reward which is how I will maintain her drive in the ring. She will see me put the food down before we go in and that's one way we'll maintain drive, she knows her reward is there even though the food itself is only one aspect of the reward.

You can tell when a dog is working in drive, it's an adrenalin fuelled behaviour and the body language a dog displays when working in drive is quite distinctive. For example I gave Daisy a dried treat earlier today and got her to do a couple of basic commands before I gave it to her (stand, down, sit) - she was attentive and responsive but it was clear to me that she wasn't working in drive. She downed as soon as I gave the command, but she didn't throw herself on the ground like she does when working in drive. She didn't have 110% focus and the sharpness she gives when in drive. When she's in drive you can see it so clearly in her body language and expressions.

I am no expert, but you still use the dog's primary drive (food/prey) to get them there and working. Sometime I'll throw Daisy a treat and she'll cough it back up and leave it on the ground, because she finds working in drive part of the reward, it's not just about the food. I would either work my dog in food or prey drive, without the food or prey item, what is there to release them to or help build drive with? Whilst the dogs get a chemical reward rewarding them in their primary drive (food/prey) is still important.

It probably does Ptolomy for me drive is a state of mind, I like to see Daisy full of energy and bouncing around dying to work. I have found proofing her so easy when we are training in drive because if she's working well in drive she doesn't even notice what's going on around her. I also think of it in terms of harnessing the drive she already has, if I can take that sheer focus she gives to scenting and turn it into something I can use in obedience it makes it even more rewarding for her. A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward as well as food/prey reward. It makes her pretty keen to work just about any time. We're not quite there yet so I don't have quite the reliability that say Seita does with Ella but we'll get there.

Well, neither if you can There's no reason why a dog working in drive can't have excellent accuracy. You just have to look at Seita's dog Ella whose highest score in Open from memory is 196 to see an example of a dog who can work in drive AND be accurate ETA: For me I like working Daisy in drive as I see no other option for her - if she wasn't in drive, there's no way I could guarantee I could keep her nose off the ground.

Not relating to a particular training program (although I do a training in drive distance package with K9 Force) just those who train their dogs in drive. Whilst it would depend on your definition of and understanding of drive, I wouldn't personally say that all training is in drive. Just as I wouldn't agree that all interested dogs are working in drive. You can see this when you go to a trial or training class - you can spot the dogs who whilst not disinterested, are going through the motions vs a dog who is working in drive. I can see this really clearly with Daisy - the difference in her now vs before we started training in drive is huge. It wasn't that she was disinterested in training before, but I never had the focus, responsiveness or reliability that I do now. Being a scent hound, her instinct to scent is huge, but when she's working in drive she doesn't even think about the smells on the ground. As an example - I might give Daisy a basic command at home like leave or sit or stay or whatever. She's not disinterested because she complies and she knows she will get a pat and some praise - but she's not responding to my command in drive, like she would do if I'd give our trigger word (ready to work?) to work in food drive. She doesn't comply with the same fast, sharp and focused response she'd give me when we are training in drive. That probably made no sense, and apologies for taking the thread further OT

In drive training when we are working with a prey item we release the dog to the toy, the dog will then bring it back to tug with you, making you part of the reward. I will release Daisy to her food reward when we start trialling too. But it's not a distraction per se as it's the same toy/food as you would use in each training session. I wouldn't release Daisy to a distraction like another dog or person as a reward.

Oh very sorry to hear that Berry

I saw Tessa's pics in the rescue forum, she's lovely do you still have Darby too?

Thanks Bedazzled, will give this a go

Was wondering if that was your Polo, FHRP! What a handsom fellow ;)

Yep, I had no food on me The problem I have isn't that she loses focus, but after a certain amount of time she starts to wonder if she's got it right so she'll start to offer behaviours i.e. a stand, a down, occasionally barking at me as if to say 'come on, what are we doing??' So for us it's a matter of extending the time she can stay still without getting bored/frustrated! If anyone approaches us when we are training (happens quite a bit when we train at the public park, lol) I always put Daisy in heel position while I chat with the person. The other day our neighbours kid came out to chat while we were training and Daisy didn't look twice at him while we were talking ;) need to practice it in a more trial like setting though!! ETA: I have a heap of friends/family coming over tomorrow for a party, is it a bit sad to think it's a perfect training opportunity?? LOL!!

IMO - one way to help prevent dog attacks is to have a well socialised and well trained dog. Yes, that involves having a dog who has been exposed to a range of experiences and places and has been taught how to behave appropriately in those places. When I get a pup, I take them out and about to as many different places as possible as part of their key socialisation period. Dogs who have had poor socialisation are more likely to have behaviourial problems as adults. A poorly socialised dog is more likely to respond in a way we consider inappropriate when faced with situations they are uncomfortable with. They are more likely to be stressed and fearful. There's no way on earth that I would buy a puppy, chuck it in the backyard and only take it out to the local park (but then again, that's somewhere people and children frequent, so perhaps that's not allowed, either?). My dogs behave well when taken in public because they have been well trained and well socialised. I see so many dogs who have not been adequately socialised as pups who can't handle the most basic of things, and you can bet that they are more likely to bite than my dogs.

And by always blaming the dog or the dog's owner, you remove any responsibility that parents have to appropriately supervise their kids around dogs. No, I'm not saying that every dog attack on a child is the fault of the parent for not adequately supervising their children or that that is definitely the case in the OP but they often are. Just because your daughter has been bitten by a dog unprovoked, does not change the fact that many children have been bitten because they have been antagonising the dog and/or their parents failed to supervise them properly. I am gobsmacked that you can't see how important it is for adults to supervise their children around dogs - don't you know how many children are attacked due to lack of supervision on behalf of the parents Take the example Winterpaws gave about the dog whose owners had it PTS because it bit their child - when the child had shoved a crayon up the dog's ear. Surely you can see that attack is not the fault of the dog? ETA: honestly you're post just reminds me of the irresponsible parents who I mentioned before, who bought their kids to my house and watched as their child unlocked my back door to go and pat my dog while he was eating a bone. That they couldn't see the danger in that situation, and failed to act with any responsibility and failed to supervise their child properly is exactly the attitude in parents that leads to dog attacks. Blaming the dog and failing to take any responsibility is exactly what leads to more dog attacks, that could have been completely preventable. BTW - I'm happy to see responsible dog owners taking their dogs out and about when appropriate. Nothing worse than a dog whose nothing but a backyard orniment. I can't believe you think dogs shouldn't be taken anywhere that people or children go Geez, my dogs would never leave the yard in that case!

CK did amazing, Agility Dogs! Spotted a few DOLers too

Ok so I tried this in one of our training sessions today. I lined Daisy up with no food on me, handed her leash over and didn't say a word... she looked up at me for 50 seconds before moving slightly (but returned eye contact to me). Am going to try this with someone talking to us and patting her!

Beagles and labs do make cute pairs, RS! Gotta see more beags in the obedience ring too

LOL RS, me too. Although Daisy loves toys too, there's nothing quite like food especially anything sweet, you should have seen her working for a pikelet the other day!

And I still maintain that why the dog bit is important. Were you there or have you seen the child since it happened? Asking because of what you have wrote about the bite on here. The post of mine you've quoted above is not referring to one specific incident but dog bites/attacks in general. In any situation, it's important to know why the attack occured, in order to help prevent them in the future. What have I written about the bite on here, and where have I ever claimed to know what happened?

No advice sorry Erin Huge congratulations on your pregnancy I'm sure between Jane and K9 and some of the experienced posters here, you'll get it sorted out

It's not cute at all ;) she loves the sound of her own voice, she carries on like that when she's really excited. Sometimes she does it as I'm riling her up just before we train. She doesn't normally bark during heelwork though, I think it's because at home is so boring and has zero distractions