huski

Speaking of QLD trials Seita - I had a look on the CCCQ website and it looks like they still haven't released trial dates for 2010??

No more trials here until later in Jan, unfortunately. We don't have any in December.

Yeah what a great training idea I've done something similar with Daisy by taking her to our local dog park and getting her to work and focus with other dogs clambering on top of her, but it's not my favourite thing to do (I hate the dog park). I find it's hard too as I'll get other dogs jumping up on me trying to get the food. We've had a few occasions where we've been training in the park in on lead areas and off leash dogs have run at us one was barking and growling and carrying on which was very disconcerting. I find it a lot harder to get Daisy's focus 100% in those situations, as she will break focus as the strange dog rushes at her, although it's usually quite quick to get her focus back. If I take her to the dog park where the dogs are already off leash, I have no problem getting her 110% focused on working when other dogs are jumping on top of her. If other dogs walk past us when we're training it's fine too. Damn off leash dogs rushing at us. It's a hard thing to train for as it's not like I want to find strange dogs to rush up to us!

Rocco I just love your pics, they are so amazing! Can people commission you (not sure if that's the right term) to do portaits of their pets?

I wasn't saying that you let them do anything they like to them - just that no matter what your kids did to them, if the dog reacted out of pain or self defense you'd have it PTS. I wouldn't value my dogs lives over a child, but I wouldn't have my dogs PTS because a child (or adult) hurt them. Why even have dogs if you are going to treat them with such little regard?? To state it's a testament of the dog's character or somehow unnatural for a dog to respond when hurt or threatened is not just unfair but untrue. We can't always know instantly when our dogs are injured, or tender/ sore or the extent of the injuries/pain. Sometimes we do know but can't get around having to handle them (i.e. when they are being treated/examined/being lifted onto the table or into the car).

At least I have enough value and respect for my dogs to help them, not have them PTS, when they try to tell me that they're injured or in pain. Nothing irritates me more than parents who think their child should be able to do what they like to a dog without the dog reacting.

Then I pity your dogs who would be PTS because a child seriously hurt them. Would you do the same if an adult hurt them too? Whose going to protect your dogs from people hurting them, if you think it's up to the dog to hold back it's instinctive reaction? Using Winterpaws example - do you think it's ok for a child to stick a pencil in a dog's ear and ok to then have that dog PTS for reacting out of pain? What about kids who are deliberately cruel to animals - someone posted an example once of kids taping a dog's mouth closed with duct tape. Or kids who kick, hit and throw things at dogs because they think it's funny. Guess it would just be an example of the dog's poor character for biting them or trying to protect itself? So you're saying my dogs, Ashanali's dogs, any dog who has reacted out of pain when someone's hurt them have poor character? Perhaps I just need to grow up or have kids to really understand But if my dogs snap at me the last thing I would do is PTS - it is so out of character for them that it would be a sign to me that something's up and they are injured/in pain etc. Which was exactly the case when Mish grabbed my arm. If I'd follow your line of thinking I would have PTS a dog who was reacting purely because he was in pain. I sincerely hope your dogs never lash out because they are in pain, or injured, or frightened

Did you read my post where I said my son was bitten on the face when he fell onto a sleeping dog? The dog ended up being one of the most incredibly patient and loving dogs I've ever owned. Loved loved LOVED the kids and would never intentionally hurt them. The incident was the only time he ever lashed out at one of the kids. You have no idea what your dog would do until it happened. Exactly - and yet many dogs are PTS by people like Kirty who believe it's entirely the dogs fault, and an example of the dog's poor temperament, if they react like that

So you think you can cause your dogs as much pain as you like, as the "pack leader" your dog shouldn't react? I've seen my dogs play fighting and Micha has accidentally stood on Daisy's ear, she has yelped and nipped him out of pain; it is pure instinct it's got nothing to do with pack order. Micha was at the chiropractor a little while ago, he was in pretty bad pain as he had a back injury and when we moved to put him on his side he yelped and grabbed my arm (it was in the way) - not hard but he's NEVER put his teeth on me in seven years. It was pure instinct, a basic reaction and NOTHING to do with pack order. No, a dog wouldn't hurt a pup for simply jumping on it - a dog would bite out of pain. Sometimes dogs have injuries that are not always clear to us, two vets told me Micha had mild arthritis before we finally found out it was actually a back injury. Are you saying that you don't think dogs ever react out of pain? That a reaction to being hurt isn't pure instinct? Can you completely, 100% control your immediate reaction when you hurt yourself?

Oh please. A dog reacting in pain is reacting purely out of instinct. They are not capable of rationalising their pain or thinking about their actions. How can pure instinct be a judge of character? My dogs have grabbed at me when I've accidentally hurt them when they've been injured (not to bite me specifically but because I was in the way when they reacted) - are you saying they have poor character? I'd hate to be your dogs if some child (or adult for that matter) hurt them and they reacted out of pain What if the dog was already sore/injured? i.e. had arthritis or another health problem - is it still a test of character then?? ETA: I agree cavnrott - the dog did not maul the child.

I found stand a tricky one to train regardless of what command word I used. I think that both commands starting with 's' doesn't really make much difference as they both have a very different sound - IMO the emphasis is more on the vowel sound than the beginning letter. Hand signals help too - I found it much harder to get stand on voice command only, but Daisy is getting it about 90%-95% of the time now. I had a problem with Daisy occassionally pre-empting recalls (she gets very excited doing them) and a very clever DOLer recommended I call out other words starting with 'h' (recall command word for us is 'here') to really solidfy Daisy's response. So I have her in a stay and call out words like hat, hair, hello etc. It worked like a charm

Oh - it was Monday. Do'h! This week is getting away from me! My excuse is that i've gone from couch potato to GSD handler for 2hrs of walking and running a day so my mind is melting, hehe. LOL I thought I was losing my mind, hehe!

I pray for this day to come quickly - lol. Sophie just gets sooooooo excited and her previous owners for the first 18months of her life let her jump all over them so it's hard going to try and break the habit. huski I was in another thread that you went to Metro Dog Club - are you still there? I was there last Friday night observing and trying to calm down my very excited GSD! I saw a few dog's that have the same colouring as your Daisy. I haven't been much at all this past year as I've been doing a training program with Steve from K9 Force, but as we will be hitting the trial ring at some point next year I will probably go back at some stage I've spectated at a couple of their trials this year though. I thought training was on Monday night? What was on Friday?

I found the best strategy with Daisy (who used to be quite the jumper) was to teach her an alternative way to get attention instead (seeing as jumping up is an attention seeking behaviour). Dogs jump up because they learn it's a successful way to get what they want. Instead, I taught Daisy that jumping up wouldn't work but the instant she sat down, she would get lots of attention and pats. I now have a dog who will run up to me to say hello but will slam her butt down on the ground as soon as she reaches me

I found doing a lot of drive building with Daisy helped her focus tremendously. I have focus now like I never had before For general stuff like wanting to get her focus quickly on walks I trained the 'look' command but in terms of heel work it was building her drive that really made the difference.

Do you mean for heel work or teaching a focus word like look?

I like my dog to be able to do both well on their own. I prefer that she works well for voice signals as I'd rather she is more responsive to my voice than body language. Although I'm sure I'll be so nervous when we start trialling that I'll end up using both out of habit anyway

Wow Jesamil Lexi is amazing I am trying to get Daisy working reliably with voice commands only... you forget how much you rely on hand signals!! Her stands are no where near as accurate with voice only

Hey Jeanne - just speaking from my own experience, if I'm in a hurry I still do TOT. My dogs are at the stage where they don't need to be on a tie out so it's quick to do it. You don't have to make them stay for more than 30 seconds if you are in a hurry.

Tiggy, Banjo is so handsome!!

Siberians aren't a large breed by any stretch of the imagination. How is it different if a child went out of their way to hurt a dog, and a child fell on top of the dog and hurt it unintentionally? In both instances the dog is reacting because it's hurt. How can you hold the dog accountable for one but not the other? It wouldn't be hard for a dog reacting in pain to seriously hurt a child, their face is level to the dog's and their skin is soft, a toddler doesn't have the same speed to react as an adult does, either. But what if the dog is injured? Or sore? or the child falls on it in such a way that it really is hurt - you can't hold the dog accountable for reacting unintentionally because they are in pain. It is not the same as a dog attacking a child because it's aggressive. Irregardless of the owner's situation, I don't think it's right that a dog that bit a person or child out of pain should be forced to have a DD order on it. My dogs don't have an ounce of human aggression in their bones but I've been bitten when they've been in pain (not seriously). It's not a reflection on their temperament or their training nor their ability to safely be around people.

So if your daughter tripped and fell over one of your dogs, hurting them, and they yelped, nipping her unintentionally out of pain you would happily have them live their lives as dangerous dogs? In a run outside, only allowed to be handled by people 18 years and older, muzzled every time they leave the pen etc? A dog reacting out of pain is not the same as a dog reacting out of aggression. What about children who kick or hit dogs or pull their tail/ears etc and the dog nips them because they are in pain? Should those dogs have to be muzzled the rest of their lives and have a DD order put on them in that instance, too?

I thought that it was the law in NSW that pups had to be eight weeks before they could go to their new homes? Or is that just the COE for registered breeders?

If the kid fell onto the dog, he could have reacted out of pain/surprise. Why should he have a DD order on him if that was the situation?

I'd ran out of training treats and had forgotten to defrost the lot I had in the freezer, so tonight I trained Daisy with a pikelet in my hand :D She has a sweet tooth so it was better than sausage