huski

What did you expect when you started this thread? I think you've misunderstood what K9's view on socialisation is about so I offered some clarification. Totally agree with you again, Staranais, which is why I directed the OP to the thread I posted above as it is a big discussion on this very topic.

JMHO - but if I wanted to feed a more natural diet, I'd be reading up on raw diets as they are more biologically appropriate for dogs and will give you a better idea of what is suitable. You don't have to completely eliminate the table scraps, but I would be feeding a lot more raw meaty bones etc.

potato pancakes and tortillas are not dog food, thats human food 100%. I'd rather stick to a good dry food, some table scraps if they are dog friendly and then raw meaty bones to keep the teeth healthy and the guts moving. Totally agree with the above Nekh, and I also wonder exactly what 'years of research' she's done that indicate dogs need grains and food like fried tortillas as well as all the salts and spices we put in our food for flavour.

I've never heard of it so I did a quick google search and found her website: http://www.naturaldogfood.com/ I feed a raw diet so my dog's don't eat dried food and I consider it pretty 'natural'. What would worry me about her diet is that it seems to have little research behind it - she's feeding her dogs all sorts of foods that I wouldn't consider good for them i.e. in left overs the dogs could be eating onion, garlic, pasta, rice etc all things that IMO are unneccessary to feed. She says that grains like rice are the cornerstone of a good diet whereas I disagree with that - everything I've read about canine diets and health have said feeding grains is not neccessary because dogs can't process them. The biggest issue I take with her diet is that all the meat she feeds is cooked meat. She actually says in her FAQ that she doesn't recommend feeding raw meat and she won't do it. I feed my dogs cooked meat sometimes as training treats but dogs aren't people and as such we have different dietary needs, ours bodies process things differently etc. Dogs have evolved to get all the nutrients they need from raw meat and bones, and cooking the meat means it loses a lot of the nutrients. Your dog's diet shouldn't lacking in calcium if you are feeding them enough raw bone in their diet.

Agree with the above We all want different things from our dogs, I prefer to have a dog that sees me as higher value than other dogs. I don't want to have a dog that would rather blow me off and play with other dogs than obey my commands. I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of Steve's clients are your average pet owners. To the OP, you might want to have a read of this thread from the training forum about neutralisation/socialisation as it answers a lot of the things you've raised in your post: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...c=43479&hl= Annezelvys, I think you're a little confused about what neutralisation is, it doesn't mean you have a dog that can't interact with other dogs or people other than the owner. It doesn't mean you don't socialise your dog, or that you don't expose it to other dogs.

I agree Laffi... Often I don't pander to any pack order, if I am giving treats the dog who gets the first one is the dog who obeys me first i.e., the first one to sit when I say sit is the first one to get the treat.

I would put Daisy inside and well out of sight of wherever you plan to do TOT with Ruff. It's important to follow TOT exactly to get the best results, from memory the first stage is to back tie the dog on a rope, then go and prepare the meal inside. So I'd feed Daisy, put Ruff on a tie out and then prepare his food. I wouldn't prepare Daisy's food or feed her in front of Ruff. I'm no expert though of course so if you want to ask specific questions relating to TOT, post them in the TOT thread and K9 Force will answer them directly

Your dogs sound really well behaved huski, unfortunately my dogs aren't very good at the down command I have done the recall past the food though. I forgot about one of my dogs one night and left him sitting in his crate with his bowl of food for about fifteen minutes. This is a highly food orientated dog and he never touched it, I was truly amazed. So to the OP yes, definitely try TOT They might know the down command but I doubt they would last 15 minutes in a stay That's amazing, Miranda!

Me too. I had a very strong willed young man here, he thought he was it and a bit and was really pushing the boundaries. I put him on TOT and it made a world of difference to his behaviour in a matter of days. I apply TOT to everything now not only food, giving them favourite toys or bones, letting them off at the park, whatever they want they have to sit and wait for it until I give the ok. They all have rock solid stays too. I can't recommend TOT highly enough. I found the same. I love the focus you get with it. I get the dogs to do more than just sit now, I give them other commands i.e. I will have them in sit/stay and will give them the down command, or I will get them to do a recall so they have to run to me and not the food or I'll get them to do a sit/stay while I go into the other room etc just to make it interesting for them.

Thanks Miranda, I've certainly found it useful Daisy's not food aggressive by any means but she is incredibly food driven and has (or had) about zero self control when it comes to food. She enjoys doing TOT because it trains her in food drive, always ends in a food reward and it helps me to put some control in, in an easy way.

Just my opinion but there is no way on earth I'd let two dogs that have been acting the way yours have eat together... very dangerous advice IMO. Getting them to eat next to each other now would be asking them to run before they could walk. I would be feeding them one after the other, keeping them seperated when they are eating, and I'd practice TOT with both of them: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101 I think that you gaining control over Ruff when it's food time and teaching him it's a resource you control, not him, will help make a difference. ETA: Even if you feed Daisy and then take Ruff and do TOT with him outside or in another room could be beneficial as it sounds like Ruff is the instigator.

She'll get it with time, she's still only young so as long as you are consistent she will work it out

I know what you mean - it's hard to say much without seeing the behaviour though, it does sound like she gets a fright if she's woken suddenly. Do you take her outside often enough i.e. after she's woken up, after she's eaten, after she's had a play etc?

Just to throw another spanner in the works, Artemis has a Fresh Mix medium/large breed Senior range - it would be my dried food of choice http://www.pookinuk.com.au/product-selecte...p?productID=548 If you wanted higher protein you could try giving her some raw meaty bones as well or go the Artemis grain free (not sure how suitable it is for older dogs) which has a much higher protein level.

Don't feel restricted simply because there are only a few in your state, we have bought a puppy from interstate before, it's quite a common thing to do Many reputable, registered breeders are happy to send their pups interstate if the home is a good one.

And if that had been say a '10 level' collar, you probably wouldn't have felt anything on level 1, but would have jumped to level 2 to feel it and it would have been a stronger sensation than was necessary, if that makes sense. Makes total sense. I figured the stim levels would have to go up in bigger incriments if you were working with a collar that had less levels, makes sense when you put it like that! ETA: Ah gotcha Steve - so that's why the collars with more levels tend to be more popular with trainers who do low stim training? because more levels gives you more opportunity to 'find' the right working level for each dog.

Huski - Just to add to K9 Force's reply, a collar of 127 levels would be equivalent to a level of about (eg) 12.7 on a collar with only 15 levels. But as K9 has said, the difference is that the 127 levels gives you increments of "1" between every level that a 15 stim or 10 stim collar would have. What you asked is not a silly question. Thanks Erny - I think it was the 127 level collar that I let Midol stim me with, I do remember it had to get to level 15 or so before I even felt the slightest sensation.

Thanks SJ - I think mum has cooked the SP so it mashes easily into the roo meat. I spoke to mum this morning and she said Cherry is like a new dog since she's had the cortisone injection, she is running around and VERY happy, her skin is noticecably less red and she isn't itching. I'm glad she's had some relief as long as we can keep it up!

I put the puppy in a sit position and lure them into a down with a treat. This worked well for Daisy I've always left them water out but my dogs never drink at night time anyway - I wouldn't take water away as early as 7pm (JMO) because when Daisy was a pup she wouldn't go to sleep until much later. I guess many people crate train their puppies (I didn't learn about crate training until Daisy was older) and once they are in the crate they wouldn't have access to water. I've never needed to do this, but then again, if Daisy sleeps in her crate it's enclosed and probably a bit warmer. I wouldn't do it myself. Do you mean if she is woken suddenly? She probably does it because she's had a fright. Although if you come to my house at "zoomie" time you probably think Daisy's gone crazy too! She runs around the house barking, jumping, running around with her toy in her mouth and generally being a real fool

K9: Low stim training is accepted but not practised by many, many still use the higher end of the scales. Some things such as food refusal & snake proofing are still trained by many on the highest level of stim they can find. Another reason is that all dogs feel the stim at different levels, so a variabnce is needed. I use the dogtra because the models we recommend have 127 levels. I am not interested in higher levels, just the fact that each level has less than 1% change of stim level at the collar, meaning I can find the perfect level of stim for every dog. level one is so low, never met an animal that coulkd eve feel less than about 5. Thanks Steve, that makes total sense

I have a very silly question to ask about e-collars. It is generally accepted that low stim training is the way to go, so why do some collars have such high levels? i.e. the one with 100+ levels of stim... does anyone actually need to go as high as level 100? Why do they still make them to stim so high? I know - stupid question but I'm curious

I am surprised with the sardines... isn't that drenched in oil and would the sardines have bones? I don't eat sardines myself so i wouldn't know whether they have bones or not It looks salty as well is it not ? Sardines and mackeral are great for dogs! Ours have them several times a week The bones are so soft that you could mush them with your finger, so they aren't a problem. You can get them in vegetable oil or spring water but a little bit of oil won't hurt them. I also feed raw egg too

What is she like if you do some drive training on a tie out?

Thanks for the advice Stormie - it's much appreciated It depends how bad her itchiness is, the last shot only lasted about two weeks max before she was back to itching and biting herself. I can't quite remember if all of her itching changed completely the last time she had a shot so I will watch her like a hawk this time and see how long she goes without itching.

Thanks Stormie, unfortunately the appointment was at 3pm they gave her a cortisone shot. Mum told the vet we are going to do an elimination diet and she said 'with kangaroo meat' and he said 'I'd put in some sweet potato"