huski

I think it's really important to teach dogs how to behave outside of structured training times. On another note, I don't generally understand the argument that incorrectly using positive reinforcement isn't as dangerous as incorrectly using corrections. Rewards can be SO powerful and valuable to a dog, dogs learn so much through which behaaviours they gain success from.

Have you had him assessed by a behaviourist PA?

If that works for you great, but rewarding my dogs is something I actually enjoy doing and to be honest, I find it a bit odd when others see it as a chore or something unnecessary or as if it's some kind of burden. There are also many dogs that would fail to be motivated enough to do something purely to avoid you "growling" at them.

Your young dog was lovely! Can't wait to see your progress :) And naturally I agree with you, Wis is definitely the bomb :cool: :laugh: She's still so young so will be great to see how she develops.

While I don't have the skills or the lifestyle to suit a Mal, I think I may just be in love with Wisdom. WOW! S Hehe, I am in love too! I hope she didn't leave you too bruised and battered! (unlike me :laugh:)

I think it depends on what your goals are and what level of work you want from your dog, there's more to how a dog responds to a command than whether they are just getting it right/complying with it.

But why would any reputable trainer use any tool/method if the result would be undesirable?

Sounds like it would work great if you were shown how to use it properly. Whatever you do, don't get a Malinois and learn bite-work with these people! :laugh: Aidan. Just like prong collars and any tool or training method, using food rewards in training is only as effective as the person using them.

I work FT and I don't have hours a day to put into my dogs, however I could easily leave my beagle at home for 14 hours while I'm at work etc and come home and all I need to do with her is feed her and give her affection and she's happy to curl up on the lounge next to me and chill out. The Mal requires a bit stricter management to live with and while training is easy in some ways because she's so smart and driven and just an all round awesome dog, they obviously don't suit everyone. Even friends of mine with dogs I would also consider to be high drive look at her and go I've met people with awesome dogs who are capable of being super stars but the owner isn't interested in further training or sports or anything like that. The dog doesn't know any different but you can't help but look at them sometimes and think 'what if...' :)

I've met some super little Mini Schnauzers, they are so cute with their beards too LOL - I tend to see them more in agility than obedience, would love to see some more in the obedience ring. I am working on teaching heelwork at the moment as well, to the pup in my sig. We've only been working together for a short time and I have just started teaching some obedience exercises. She is SO much fun! I am in love

One has to wonder what the consequences would have been for the passing dog if the tethered dog had got free. Unless the prongs were sharpened, I can't comprehend how a prong collar could inflict that kind of damage. I agree, sounds extremely far fetched. The prongs would have to have been sharpened (and despite what the article in the OP says this is not common at all, and in the extremely rare occurrence that someone would do such a thing, and I've never heard nor seen of it happening myself, it is outright abuse) or the collar would have been left on the dog for weeks or months causing pressure necrosis which can happen with any kind of collar. Just more drivel that makes the writers of such articles lose reputability, IMO. efs

When is this? I would be very interested in coming. Steve won't believe it's the same dog he's met before! XD Hi Wobbly, the date is not yet set in stone as we only just wrapped up our last workshop for the year this past weekend. However, looking like end of Feb - will be sure to let our database know once it's all confirmed! :)

We have been trialling the professional range of Techkewl coats with great results, they are what the police, military etc use. You insert frozen ice packs and it will keep the dog cool for hours. AS others have said though I'd be using them under supervision.

It's definitely dependent on your training goals etc, for training obedience generally I find the magnetic ball by far the best option as a reward as it allows for so much accuracy. But then other things I'd use a tug for, or food. It's fun to mix it up :)

Just to clarify by using that example I definitely wasn't suggesting using a ball as a reward is bad (I use a magnetic ball with the Mal for some things) just like many things it comes down to how we use it to benefit what we are training.

Yes, I would, the instinct from herding has to come from somewhere, and it would have been there from the day he was born. Remember too that dogs learn what behaviours create drive satisfaction, like my scent hound who is extremely scent driven learning that she can give herself drive satisfaction through scenting. She spent a long time learning that scenting was the best way to satisfy her drive so it was then hard work to channel that drive through food (which we did and it worked very well, but it would have been much easier had I done that from day one rather than letting her learn to self reward through scenting). Another way to look at it is that a dog who is reasonably prey driven who loves chasing the ball and who has learnt that chasing the ball is the best way to achieve drive satisfaction, can be hesitant to tug with the owner because they've learnt that the reward comes away from the handler (by chasing the ball). The dog is so conditioned to receiving the reward at distance from the handler that when you ask the dog to go into drive for a tug it can hesitate or move away expecting the reward to be thrown. That's when using a flirt pole or something similar can help transition a dog onto a tug.

I did have a quick look at it, but I don't believe that you can only get those things she talks about through tugging, in my experience you can get the same results with food if you know how to use it properly. I'm not sure which was the last workshop of ours you attended, as I've been to all of them for the last several years and I don't think I've seen you at one before? The methods and approach we use for training are constantly evolving so the way we approach training etc may have changed since the last workshop you attended. We're running a drive and focus workshop early next year, you should come along :) It's great that it works for you then and you are getting the results you want in a time frame that works for you IMO, drive is something a dog has genetically, it's there from the day it's born. You can learn how to use it and maximise it and build on it but you can only work within the genetic capabilities of the dog you have in front of you. IMO tugging is part of prey drive, the desire to chase and grab a moving item isn't about play, it's about catching moving prey. Though of course there are many different schools of thought out there about what prey drive is and isn't, we just use the approach that works for us and others to get results. ETA: I see dogs that tug but the dog is just playing, not displaying any real prey drive. I wouldn't call play and prey drive the same thing.

If your dog really has enough drive to do all that then I'm sure he could go into prey drive for other items. I'm not talking about dogs who just prefer furry toys, I'm talking about dogs that can only display drive if the handler is waving around a furry and/or noisey toy. I have not yet come across a dog that can only show drive for noisey/furry toys that has enough drive to sustain it or be durable enough to do what the owner wants it to. Yes, you need to work with the dog you have in front of you and that involves working with what the dog is capable of genetically. Not all dogs need to be working line BCs or Mals to play tug well, we have many clients who don't have working line dogs that do really well with drive work but at the end of the day all you can ever do as a handler is build on what your dog already has genetically. I don't see the point in forcing a dog to play tug if it doesn't really have enough drive to enjoy it. It's supposed to be a reward, if it takes you months or years to get your dog responding to it and it can only do it under special circumstances then in all likelihood, the dog doesn't see it as a reward. If you have found spending a year trying to get him to take a reward like a tug has been worthwhile for you, that's great! But I would still question if he really has 'enough drive', if it has taken you that long to encourage him to take tug as a reward. I'm sure the extra time you've put into working with him and training him has been of benefit to your relationship, but if as you've said above yourself he may never view the tug as a valuable enough reward to be motivated by tugging or rewarded by it outside of the yard, could you not have improved your relationship using other rewards? What is the point if he really doesn't value the reward that much that you probably can't use it practically? There are some things that were easier with Daisy but if you mean getting Wisdom to go into drive is easier, than yes of course it is! That's why I wanted a working line dog with loads of drive to train (ETA: and IMO, training ANY kind of dog well requires skill and I certainly wouldn't call training even a working line dog simple, there are lots of things we can do to stuff up and training a dog like that still presents it's challenges). I started out training Daisy with a tug but swapped to food when I realised she just wasn't as driven for the tug. I didn't see the point in forcing her to take a reward she didn't really want. She has enough drive for food to work under distraction and at trials etc so we didn't need tug. If I had persevered with her for a year or more and still couldn't get her to go into drive outside the yard then I would have questioned if she had enough drive to do what I wanted to do with her. If the only way I could have gotten her to take a food reward outside of the house was to poach a piece of chicken breast and soak it in sardines I would have asked if she really had enough drive for food to work at the level I wanted. That's just how I view it, we work with a lot of different dogs with varying levels of drive, and there are many things we can do to get more out of our dogs. You have to work with the dog you have in front of you and find what works best for them. I wouldn't spend months or years trying to build prey drive into a dog who has little to no value for prey items (tugs) as a reward, I think that's a lot of time to spend trying to get a dog to value a reward that is time that could be spent building your relationship etc using rewards the dog actually does have value for.

I think Megan and Kavik you are missing my point. I'm not saying that there is something wrong with a dog playing with furry toys, I'm sure many dogs do like them. But if the dog can only go into drive for a furry toy I would question if the dog has enough drive to do what you want it to. Kavik as you bought up your experience with your dog I'll use that as an example. The style that you play with your dog probably does make a difference but realistically if it takes you a year to train your dog to tug just in the back yard is he really going to have enough drive for that reward to do an obedience ring run out or run the agility course in a highly distracting environment? Does he really have much value for the tug as a reward? My point is that if it takes a year to get a dog to tug just in the back yard, and the tug has to be furry or squeaky or whatever the dog probably does not have enough drive or value for that particular reward. If it takes you a year to teach tugging in the backyard how long will it take to be able to use it in the obedience ring? Or at agility etc.

Differently to which of our programs? I think it's important that dogs can learn to tug on different surfaces, but there are lots of reasons why some tugs and surfaces are better than others. Safety for the dog, firstly - rope toys for eg can have threads come loose and lodge between the dogs teeth and cause infection in the gums. You should also choose a tug toy that's a safe size for the dog to tug on, too thick and it can cause the dog jaw pain because they have to stretch their mouth over it too far, too thin and it can also be uncomfortable if the dog snaps it's mouth around it quickly and snaps its teeth together. Tugs that fall apart quickly can affect the dog's grip. Practical elements too - we've all met someone whose dog's favourite tug toy is a deflated soccer ball! If you want to use drive in competition or for a certain goal having to whip out a deflated soccer ball is impractical. It's hard for the handler to grip on. You also don't want the dog to tug on a surface that can damage it's teeth. I could keep going but there are really a million and one reasons why what the dog tugs on is important, regardless of whether the dog is learning bite work! :) As I said, there is nothing really wrong with furry tugs etc on their own but if the dog needs to be stimulated by the fur and sound of the tug to go into prey drive, I'd be asking firstly if the tug is being handled properly and secondly whether tug is really what the dog works best for. efs

Don't knock furry tugs - they rock :laugh: (except they get really gross after a while!) - remember not all dogs are Malinois and not all prefer the same tugs I use a range of tugs including the udder tugs, real and fake sheepskin, fake fur, balls on ropes, kong wubbas, braided fleece, and one I made with a skinneez toy that I affectinately call 'roadkill on a rope' :laugh: I have several 'tradtitional tugs' but he doesn't like them as much. LOL I am well aware not all dogs are Malinois, though it would be fun if they were the only dogs I got to work with! I'm sure many dogs love furry tugs, but I still maintain that if the dog will only go into drive for furry, colorful or noisey tugs it probably doesn't have enough drive to do what you want it to.

I should add there are definitely times I reward more frequently with food etc, I use shaping a lot, so I don't always handle the reward the same way. I like talking about creating a reward experience and looking at how we deliver rewards because I do think it makes a difference to the dog and I think it can be beneficial to train that way.

Hey SL, the one Kavik is talking about is this one I wrote last week; http://blog.k9pro.com.au/creating-the-reward-experience/ It probably is possible to increase his desire for a food reward, but there are also other ways to harness his prey drive without using a squeaky ball if that's what he loves the most. I would avoid using a squeaky or noisey toy if possible anyway, if the dog has enough prey drive to work with you don't need to activate their prey drive with squeaky balls or furry tugs etc.

Thanks Kavik :). As I said on the blog, for me it's one of the valuable things I've learnt about training dogs. We notice this especially when running dog and handler workshops - we see dozens of dogs change how they respond to the handler, their focus, their desire for the reward, their durability and desire to work simply through changing the way the reward is delivered, when you see how quickly the dog changes you can't deny the difference reward delivery can make. ETA: And of course there is a practical element too, if we look at something like playing tug how you present and handle the tug can either encourage the dog to engage with you and increase it's desire for the tug or it can turn the dog off tugging. The number of times I have seen people say 'my dog won't tug' only to watch them and see how they handle the tug is making the dog turn off, has been huge! Show them how to do it right and the dog can turn into a tug monster almost straight away. Super interesting stuff, though getting OT now! :)

If people choose to believe that reward delivery makes no difference to dogs that is their choice of course, however it's certainly not my experience and we see huge changes in dogs responsiveness and engagement levels when the handler is taught how to deliver the reward in a way that not only makes the experience of receiving a reward more exciting but involves the handler more. Sharing in a reward experience with your dog isn't about making the reward itself more valuable, it's about involving yourself in the process so the dog learns that without you the reward doesn't have much value. A dog that has learnt this can get rewards from elsewhere, even the same reward as what you are offering, but it won't hold the same interest or value to the dog as it would coming from the handler. There is more to training dogs IMO than handing a piece of food over to them, at the very least, I certainly enjoy training my dogs more when it's an experience we are both sharing in and enjoying together.