huski

Woohoo this was me! coffee splurk! Huski called Roger Ramvet a douche LOL! That I did. That I did. It really is the first word that springs to mind...

Ah, no, I don't think so. I simply said there isn't any proof that these tools cause injury or harm to dogs especially the in the way anti-prong advocates claim they do. Well, yes, obviously. I never said anywhere that they weren't aversive or that they were pleasant we all know that prong collars are aversive tools just like any other corrective tool.

Huski - with all due respect, I think there is mis-wording that you've used. Liken "pain" to "discomfort". The PPCollar causes discomfort or pain. The Head Collar causes discomfort or pain. No-pull Harnesses cause discomfort or pain. A pop on a flat collar can cause discomfort or pain. If there were no discomfort (or pain) then there would be no reason why a dog would respond to it. There is "no recorded evidence of harm" cause through the use of the PPCollar. But I don't think "pain" is the correct word to include and indeed does go outside the actual quote given by the Victorian Labor Government. Hope you don't mind me picking up on this, but I think the accuracy of it bears considerable importance and needs to be corrected (pardon the pun) early, before it becomes a twist of words that carries through far into the discussion. Thanks Erny! I agree I worded that poorly. Of course there is an element of discomfort/pain there as there is with any aversive tool

Is there any evidence that they don't cause pain or harm? I've never seen any evidence for or against prong collars in all my literary wanderings. There are some people out there working with very challenging dogs that don't ever speak of them except to lump them into an "aversive training tools" category. Head collars, yes. CAT, BAT, counter-conditioning, desensitisation, even full body restraint. I've only ever found one study that examined the effect of prong collars (http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=992370272&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=992370272.pdf and it concluded that they were more distressing to dogs during police dog training than electronic collars. Yes I've seen that report before too. It doesn't surprise me that e-collars are less aversive, IMO they can be one of if not the most gentle and least aversive tool out there. I find it's a bit of a round-about argument. If they caused pain and harm as obviously as anti-prong collar advocates would have us believe, why is the proof and evidence not out there, easy and readily available to find? Is that like saying someone is guilty until proven innocent?

I'm happy for anyone to comment in this thread or the FB page with any view as long as they are prepared to discuss it. It's a open forum hence why I posted it here.

Not to go completely OT, but IMO, the drive has to be there in some form for you to build on it. There is no questionining the fact SG has high drive dogs. By definition drive is a natural instinctive behaviour. Of course it's there at birth. I don't doubt that you can fix issues with using drive, I've done this myself with my dog, but that's not always the best option for ALL dogs and handlers nor the option that will produce the best results for their situation. If you have an inexperienced 55kg female handler a 65kg highly aggressive dog, whose next stop is to be PTS because it is simply out of control, the owner needs a way to get that dog under control and fast. No training is going to take place before that happens. Tools like prong collars can give an owner leverage so that behaviour modification can take place. I'm sure you appreciate that it's not easy to find information on these laws - I've been searching all afternoon and haven't found anything to support prong collars being 100% illegal in the countries mentioned. I'm not saying you are wrong, but the information is not readily available or easy to access. Anyway - as per my previous post. Whether prongs are banned in places outside of VIC is quite irrelevant to the big picture.

I think this is important to emphasise! It always strikes me as a bit odd that people seem to think it's black and white, i.e. people who use prongs don't also use PR.

The information I found stated that they are banned in official competition not for general use.

Kiesha, I don't think anyone here has any issue with PR. I very rarely if ever use physical corrections in training but I can recognize times where tools like prongs are useful to give desperate owners leverage so that they can apply behaviour modification. IMO once a bad behaviour has become ingrained it's very difficult to stop it 100% using only positive reinforcement. There is no doubt PR is great for teaching new behaviours but it's not always the best way (to use strictly PR only) when addressing ingrained and serious behaviourial problems. People like Shell saw THREE dIfferent PR trainers and yet they still all told her PTS was the only options. What are the chances all three trainers had 'flawed application' of the method (Shell's success with zero proves she is a skilled handler capable of following instruction) rather it being a case of those methods simply were not suitable for the dog? Anyway, this is a point we addressed in the article we posted on FB today. ETA: I like SG but even she will tell you, she is not a behaviourist and doesn't work with dogs that have serious behaviourial problems. I don't believe in using force or intimidation methods in training dogs and I feel it's a common misconception that tools like e-collars and prongs are used that way.

Anyway... Whether or not prongs are banned elsewhere is beside the point. The point is that how can we, in Australia, allow our government to ban the use of a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing pain or harm? The arguments in favour of banning it largely revolve around the tool supposedly being used to abuse dogs yet banning the tool will not stop people from abusing their dogs and assuming it will is quite ridiculous.

Not in my understanding - from what I've read, the use of the tools are restricted not completely illegal.

Ok, thanks for the info. I still can't find any other information that talks about the law banning prong collars in Sweden, so if you can find something in English that would be great! Although, you did say prongs were banned in several countries. So far, Sweden seems to be the only one...?

Fuzzy, I've seen "trainers" misuse a range of tools. IMO it's not a tool specific issue.

Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information? Victoria is not the only place on earth with prong collar bans. Here is a link - not in English http://www.djurskyddet.se/media/17084/hundhalsband.pdf Google translation can be great, often hilarious and frequently "up the wall" . Lots of back packers in Qld who can assist with translation I am sure. Come on, I can't read that and from the sounds of it neither can you. You said above there are entire countries that have banned prong collars, if that's true, surely it would not be difficult to provide a list of which countries have done so.

We've just written and uploaded a document that talks about some of the myths about prongs collars, that may be a good place to start if you want to learn more about them http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/stop-the-hysteria-support-the-use-of-prong-collars-in-australia/bust-the-myths-about-prong-collars/256463711047920 But Mita - considering that dog training is, overall, an unregulated industry, what constitutes a 'qualified' trainer? Someone who has done a DELTA course? Are NDFT certified? Are vet behaviourists? Have PhDs?

Good question, given there's presently no mandatory restriction on who can use them, with what dog & how. Neither is there veterinary monitoring. IMO it is a question we should ask about ALL training tools, because any tool is capable of causing harm to a dog if an idiot is attached to the end of it. It's important to remember that banning a tool like prong collars will do nothing to stop the people who want to abuse their dogs. The only people it will effect are those who use the tool properly.

Megan, exactly how I feel. Shell exhausted all the "positive only" training methods and was told the dog should be PTS. Would the people who oppose the use of prongs rather the dog had been put down?

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them). FYI There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned. Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information?

Hey Mervin, if you want to discuss the issue of prong collars please feel free to. We've just posted note on the fan page in my OP busting some of the myths relating to the collar. Please feel free to give us your feedback Of course, if you have any proof that prong collars cause harm to and/or injure dogs I'd love to see it as so far, I am yet to come across any actual proof the tool is harmful or dangerous.

No-one who uses prong collars properly uses 'extreme pain' as a teaching tool. But I'm sure you knew that ;) Begs the question - how many are used incorrectly? How many people use check chains incorrectly? Or head collars? Or martingales? Any tool can be used to abuse a dog, that is a problem with the user not the tool.

I personally don't care if peope choose not to use prong collars. I don't use them. It's when they spread misinformation about the tool or the people who use them and try to remove anyone elses choice to use them that I don't think is right.

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them).

No-one who uses prong collars properly uses 'extreme pain' as a teaching tool. But I'm sure you knew that ;)

That's ok, the group is for people who do support the use of prong collars, you don't have to join (or use them - the beauty of choice, unless you live in Victoria where you don't have any) I don't use prong collars on my dogs but I believe the choice to use them should be available. I'm not a fan of tools like head collars, but I don't believe ANY tool should be banned - it's a slippery slope IMO and we should be focusing not on banning a tool but proper education on how, why and when to use them.

Bump - great works guys! Over 100 likes in a couple of hours