huski

Bedazzled I am not a very experienced trialler but, of course, I agree building duration is important. However, I think (well I know because I know many people who do it and do it very successfully) this can be done while still keeping your dog in drive for a primary reinforcer like food or a tug. of course there are many different ways to do things Bedazzled do you reward your dog with a food/toy at the end of every trial or does he get enough value just from working and doing the exercises?

LOL and how did that work out for you?? :p ;) In all seriousness though I do see what you are saying, I just can't see myself training an exercise that way.

Hmm, as I said Sally, I do see where you are coming from and I understand it, I just don't get it myself. If you don't mind me asking (as I am curious about the different ways people do these things) why did you try to get Kenz to value the tug more than the dumbell if it was working that well having the retrieve be the ultimate reward for her? At the end of the day it also comes back for me to the reward experience, and why I would want to take myself out the equation when it comes to rewarding my dog. Giving the dog permission to complete an exercise or do something highly rewarding is not creating a reward experience in the way I have a huge party with my dog when I give her access to the reward.

Corvus you can comment on whatever you want. What foundation work would you do with a dog to intentionally create a higher value for a dumbell retrieve (for eg) than anything you can offer? And to avoid the dog self rewarding with it? And why is this more effective or reliable than teaching the dog - do x and you'll get an awesome reward with me? The question wasn't whether or not you can fix the behaviour but why train it in the first place when teaching your dog to value an item like a dumbell more than anything you have to offer is something that can present a lot of issues. Why not train it in a way that means those issues won't become issues in the first place? Am I the only one who sees a problem with releasing a dog to it's ultimate reward at the start of an exercise when you still need the dog to complete numerous other steps? When I release my dog to a reward it's about making it a reward experience and having an awesome fun time together.

Bedazzled I see what you are saying but I just can't see how any benefit could out weigh the risks. If your dog values something like a dumbbell retrieve MORE than you or the rewards you have to offer how can you control his behaviour? I have seen dogs who value the dumbbell more than the handler or the handlers rewards and these are the dogs who take off with it and won't bring it back. And as soon as you release the dog to retrieve, that's it - you've given them access to the reward yet the exercise hasn't been completed yet.

No that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the thing I want my dog to develop value for is not agility, or obedience or whatever sport I am training for. Those are just the things I ask them to do so they can earn the rewards I have to offer. The value I build isn't about the sport we are training but my rewards and what I have to offer. Once you have a dog with drive and who values you and the rewards you offer then you can ask them to do x y and z to get drive satisfaction with you. I know it's not neccessarily a popular opinion especially in sports like agility but it's just the way I see it. I am probably not explaining myself clearly either.

Regardless Corvus why would you want your dog to value anything more than the rewards you offer? To use agility as an example though I don't know much about agility itself - I see dogs who ignore their handlers in favour of running through obstacles like tunnels and therefore self rewarding on the course. I know some people consider desirable for the dog to value the equipment like that but personally it's not something I'd ever want or train for. I want my dog running the course because it gives her access to my rewards, the same with anything else I train. JMO, but I can't see any benefit to having a dog that finds certain exercises self rewarding.

Personally I would be hesitant to have a dog who saw anything we did in the ring (like a retrieve or doing obstacles in agility) as more valuable than what I had to offer and reinforcing on it's own. I think it can lead to a lot of other issues IMO.

Jules no one here is trying to say ALL dogs should be able to tug and have prey drive as their highest drive.

Where has anyone said that having dogs that don't tug means you are a crap trainer? My dogs don't tug either but that doesnt change the fact tugging is a real science and it takes skill to get it right. No one is arguing that having weak nerves dogs is desirable but that's a moot point if that is the dog you have in front of you.

Joe that's a load of crap. I've seen people stuff up tugging with a high drive, solid nerved dog simply because their handling sucks. Don't down play the importance of the handler's skill in training their dog.

Absolutely IMO! At the end of the day when you only have the dog in front of you to work with, do what you can to make training awesome for that dog. Kavik at the risk of sounding like K9 Pro ;) one thing I've learnt about tugging especially is that you can't want your dog to tug more than your dog wants to tug! Also as someone who suffers BAD nerves in the ring, the other thing I've been focusing on rather than trying to change myself is triggering my dog as I would in the ring (i.e. saying a quiet and controlled 'ready' with little body language like I know I will say it at the start post, rather than a big excited "READY?" with lots of excited body language like I do in training).

This is how I see it: To me the very essence of training in drive is creating a reward experience for your dog. No matter genetics of the dog we have in front of us, why wouldn't we want to increase their value for the rewards we offer and make the reward experience something they value above anything else?

But seeing as dog training is an unregulated field, what would you class as a formal education? What formal qualifications that dog trainers should have? How do we know that because someone has a piece of paper that means they get the best results? I like the article K9 Pro wrote about choosing a dog trainer as I think it gives a few good pointers on what to look for and avoid. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=88

Totally agree Kavik!

Joe I'm not talking about whether or not a dog with weak nerve is untrainable or not. I am just saying that weak nerve is only one of many reasons a dog may not be working well in drive or will not show drive around the handler.

$150 sounds cheap to me too! I don't really care about what qualifications a dog trainer/behaviourist has. I've met plenty of sucky behaviourists who have been qualified and some great ones who don't have any formal qualifications. I care far more about the results the behaviourist can get and has gotten with previous clients.

IMO there is no question as to whether or not a dog's nerves can affect it's ability to go into drive in a strange place and/or around distractions but I think that's just one of many reasons for a handler to have trouble getting their dog to go into drive. I've seen Aussielover's dog IRL and I could be wrong as I'm no expert, but she did not appear to be a nervous dog by any means. My youngest dog wasn't nervous (she's actually quite a hard dog) either but I had a lot of trouble getting her to go into drive for me.

Aussielover, I cannot agree more with Shell and Staranais. Ask K9 Pro these questions rather than DOL, that is the service you are paying for and no one here will better understand the concept or program you are doing than the person who designed it for you. There are many possible reasons your dog may not be driving for the food around you, one guess is that if she's been rewarded for calm behavior (especially around you) this could be stopping her showing drive with you (though she will do it at other times away from you I.e. chasing birds, stealing food etc). That is just a guess though. Video it and send it to Steve in your weekly report so he can see what is going on. I remember seeing her at the Sydney workshop and I wouldn't say she didnt have drive

Hey guys Regarding any of our upcoming workshops (and the agility workshops with Vickie are sure to be AWESOME!!), the best bet is to sign up for our newsletter (you can do that at www.k9pro.com.au) or join the K9 Pro facebook page as that's where all the updates for workshops, seminars etc are posted.

I think you mean K9 Pro Megan :p Huge congrats to Vickie, can't wait for the agility workshop in November

Ah thanks Tony! I forgot about ADAA seeing as Ive only competed in ANKC trials. Every ANKC trial I've been too required every dog to be vetted and for each owner to walk it up and down but I wasn't sure if that would be the same for agility.

I've only competed in obedience but in QLD every dog on the ground has to be vetted regardless of sex.

I thought a lot about skipping CCD because my dog can work at least at a novice standard, but I figured as a first time trialler why not get as much experience in the ring as I can!

Blergh I hate those crappy nylon leashes! All my training is off leash really, I find adding the leash makes no difference with D, god knows when we will ever trial again though :rolleyes: