huski

MRB what possible way could hitting a dog be "well delivered"? Hitting a dog is abuse plain and simple, not a training method and it perplexed me how you could use it as an example of one.

I am no expert LL but IMO you can go a long way to preventing damage by using the tug properly and using a good quality tug that is suitable for your dog and made of appropriate material.

I think it really comes down to using what method/tool is both appropriate and suitable for the dog and owner. There are methods that I would prefer to see people use but that may not be suitable for them and their dogs. IMO using a tug properly is a real skill and can actually be harder for some people than learning how to use a prong collar properly. What makes a method or tool hard or easy to apply really depends on the ability of the person using it and how effective it will be on their dog.

Bullarab - IMHO it's not black and white like that. You can stuff your training up regardless of the tool or method you are using if you arent using it properly. I've seen people set their training back hugely "just" by using food rewards incorrectly. Never mind people I know who've been told they can ONLY use food with their dogs and no other methods apart from strict PR who have become disheartened when the method didn't work for their dog leading the owner to give up on training altogether. There is so much more to training than simple black and white view that only certain methods or tools can damage our dogs. Ignorance is what damages dogs IMO. LOL also not sure about the speaking softly bit - anyone who has seen me rev my dog up in training wouldn't call it quiet

Thats interesting bedazzled though I've never seen nor heard of it happening myself! (people covering prong collars up at clubs or trials so they can use them or judges feeling around a dogs collar).

Thanks guys! I can home quickly to pick something up at lunch time and not only found him upstairs but asleep on the lounge He had a lamb shank for dinner after we went for a nice walk together tonight

Happy 9th (nine!!! OMG! ) birthday to my special boy Micha. Words cannot describe how special you are to me, I can still remember the day we picked you up and took you home when you were eight weeks old and I can't believe that it was almost nine year ago already. I was lucky enough to have ~*Shell*~ here last week and she took some lovely photos of my best boy for me, here are some of them (Thanks Shell!) Serious Micha is serious. But he's also a big goof ball Getting ear rubs with me, his favourite thing. Dawww love you buddy.

Same, what an odd rule.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that I think it's fantastic you are willing to persevere with your dog and put the time and effort in to train her. But what I meant is that many average pet owners don't want to wait months to see results. Often if they are desperate enough to seek professional help it's not until they are at the end of their tether and they need to see quickly that they can get results with their dog, otherwise they will give up hope it can be changed. Of course prong collars like any tool are not an instant fix but when used properly with a good training program they can help the owner get control of their dog quickly so learning and behaviour modification can then take place (and the owner has renewed hope they can get control of their dog and their dog can change), once that is achieved, you don't need to use the tool any more.

For the average dog owner six months is a long time to get your dog under enough control that you can walk it outside or anywhere near distractions. I've seen owners gain control of severely aggressive dogs in minutes with a properly used prong collars. Just because someone is using a prong collar doesn't also mean they are using rewards. It's just a tool like any other - head collar, martingale, harness, check chain, a leash and collar.

Tapua, IMO you can train an off switch without compromising drive In fact the pups I know that have been raised to work in drive and have "bad manners" around the handler actually chill out really easily outside of training because they get so much satisfaction when they are working. I also think crate training is crucial with puppies! I train an 'on switch' by teaching a trigger word to get my dogs in drive.

But what if the dog is so out of control it won't take rewards from the handler? The handler has to be able to have some control over the dog before any learning can take place.

As a general rule I don't reward in position anyway. Easier to demonstrate IRL than try to explain it online but it's all about how you use the reward and the experience of getting the reward for the dog. Always rewarding the dog for being still and calm will mean it's harder to teach the dog that chasing food or tugging and being in a highly excitable and aroused state is what will gain them the reward. Now this will probably sound crazy, but I actually WANT my dogs to break stays in training. I want to get them to the point where they are so keen for the reward, value it and want it so much, that they simply cannot wait for it and break. I want them sitting there full of anticipation and excitement. It's then easy for me to give them a NRM for breaking and teach them not to do it but the end result is a dog that is highly focused in stays and has great durability (unlikely to break around distractions because all it can focus on or think about is getting the reward). Daisy used to break her stays all the time from boredom, she'd self reward immediately by scenting on the ground (and your nose is very close to the ground when you are scent hound in a down stay!) once I retrained stays above in drive it was not a problem again. Again it's not for everyone but it's how I'd do it

Yep all those great torture devices are legal in QLD ;)

I would because the way TOT is designed keeps the dog in drive. But I wouldn't set out to reward a puppy for being calm around food or for being "well mannered" and not trying to snatch food/a toy from me or jump around when I have food/a toy. I won't ever try to inhibit a puppy from showing drive with me, "manners" and self control can be put in quickly once they've learnt how the game works (though at the same time, when I release my dogs to a reward, most "manners" can fly out the window once I give the ok and they can let go and enjoy the reward experience with me) I'm not saying it's for everyone, just how I'll be doing it with my new pup. I'll be more than happy to share my experience raising a pup this way when I do it!

How is using a prong collar harsh or severe punishment Or harsher than a CC or head collar? Not questioning whether or not the club is permitted by the ANKC/CCCQ to use them, but I just don't see how the above can "defend" their decision.

What is drive if not the dog's desire for the reward?? Just playing devil's advocate ;) we all have different ways of training things, glad you are enjoying your new pup!

Wow hold on - sorry for the confusion but where did I say anywhere that I'd let my dog do whatever it wants All I said is that I wouldn't initially teach "manners" in a new pup i.e. reward for calm around food etc. Personally I think this is a mistake when we're raising sport dogs but again - that's just my opinion and certainly doesn't mean the dogs are out of control or impossible to live with, or do what they want! Many people would look at the way I'd train my dogs or a new pup and think they were being badly mannered. Chasing food, going wild for a tug, jumping around in excitement etc are all things that many people train their dogs NOT to do because they see it as bad manners. That doesn't mean I'd let my dogs do whatever they want :rolleyes: ETA: I think you get what you reward for. I see people ALL THE TIME who have taught their dogs to show calm around food, and then they wonder why their dogs won't pick up in heelwork etc - they won't go into drive when they've only been rewarded for being calm and quiet. I have a dog here who was taught to be well mannered and getting him to lose that bit of control with me and chase food or tug is hard work because he has a strong reward history for being calm and 'well mannered'. You can easily train self control while still keeping the dog in drive and without rewarding for calmness IMO I wasn't aiming my comments at any specifically, just picking up on what Sheena said about finding it desirable to have a well mannered dog when it comes to dog sports. If I had a puppy who was "crazy" at meals time I'd think, awesome! lots of potential there I'd be harnessing the crazy :D

Not saying everyone is the same or should be RV, just what I would do. I see heaps of people who train their pups to be well mannered, correct them for excitedness, reward them for calm behaviour etc and depending on their goals that's fine but just not what I'd do with the way I train. I'd encourage "bad manners" and channel it into drive work and then teach self control. I do see dogs who've been trained to be well mannered struggle with drive work because it goes against what they've been taught/rewarded for (calmness around the handler, don't snatch/grab/chase things or jump around etc) Co-existing and behaving in the house comes pretty easily once the dog learns the difference between being on in work and off for down time.

That's all well and good if you think having good manners is important in a sport dog, IMO I would intentionally be training any new pup of mine NOT to have manners ;)

I see a lot of people falling into the trap of making training ring run outs and practicing the same thing over and over every time and rewarding the same way every time. That may work with some dogs but I know with my dog the second something becomes predictable, she loses interest and self rewards by scenting. The best way I find to maintain her focus is to always keep her guessing about when the reward will be coming. So when we're doing heelwork she's glued to my leg looking up at me like she is saying 'is it now? how about now? is it now? what about now? or now? or now?' I could release her to her reward at the start post, three steps into heelwork, ten steps into heel work, just after I've left her in a stay, just after a recall, after a drop or stand, as the 'judge' is approaching her to do her SFE. There's not pattern to when she will get her reward and if I can see her becoming bored or thinking she knows when the reward is coming then I've become too predictable. Just how I train it ETA: is it about making the next exercise rewarding or about improving her duration and durability? If she loses drive after heelwork IMO it sounds more like a duration/durability issue.

If you're releasing her from heelwork maybe she's confused and thinks the exercise is finished and her reward is coming? How often in training do you surprise her by releasing her to her reward during heelwork? If you often wait until after the exercise to reward in training maybe she has come to predict the reward will always come after heelwork has finished and that's what she is anticipating in the ring? I use a reward marker (yes) in between exercises to let my dog know she has got it right and her reward is coming, I don't actually release her until after we are finished when I give our release command. But I also rarely ever run a training session like I would a ring run out, I always keep when she gets the reward unpredictable so she never knows when it's coming (or where it's coming from - it may be a treat container on top of her crate, or from my pocket, or behind me in a treat pouch, or we might run over to it somewhere etc etc)

Yep definitely try: http://www.bsdc.sportdogaustralia.com/index.htm It isn't about whether or not we think it's fair ANKC affiliated clubs aren't permitted to use prong collars or e-collars legally - IMO like Staranais I can't see the logic in it when they use tools like check chains and head collars. However, at the end of the day, those are the rules those clubs have to abide by. Like others I would just find a club or trainer that will work with you with methods you prefer (that's what I did) It's also not about open mindedness. I instruct at an ANKC affiliated club and I have no issues with prongs, e-collars etc. I don't use them at the club however as those are the rules. Schutzhund/IPO clubs aren't ANKC affiliated so they can use whatever tools they like as long as they are abiding by the law.

Yep no CCCQ affiliated clubs can use prongs or e-collars.

Skip it's hard to give you pointers without seeing you. I watched literally dozens of dogs learning to tug this weekend and it was amazing how many weren't interested at all, or would only tug on certain toys/material, or avoided the handler offering the tug who came alive and got really into it once the owner had their handling right. Tugging properly is very technical IMO!