huski

Bark collars are a bit different to remote training collars but I don't see a problem with either when they are used properly. People are always "shocked" (pardon the pun lol) when I fit my e-collar on them and they can't even feel the level of stim my dog works on.

I agree Aidan - I think too much is dependent on the dog and handler to say with confidence one method would work on any dog. I am 100% certain pure Koehler training would not have worked on my hard very scent driven hound, for example. There is no way you could have gotten her working off leash reliably strictly with praise and corrections. A correction would have to be incredibly hard for her to even notice you were giving one.

It is about the dog's performance anywhere, regardless. Your dogs are trained to give a 'performance' in the ring, Koehler trained dogs are not. There are different standards at work here. You seem to only be able to comprehend or appreciate one particular standard. Personally I prefer to teach my dogs to go into drive when I command them to do so (like in the obedience ring) and then teach manners and calm and appropriate behaviour for other times like when we're out on a walk.

If the dog is disconnected from the handler, bored, easily distracted etc that will and does impact on the dog's reliability off leash, I guarantee you.

I think a lot of people look at it through rose tinted glasses, "In the good old days when Koehler was popular, any dog could behave reliably off leash"... sure. We also didn't have the variety of breeds around that we do now, dogs didn't live as long as they do now, dogs that didn't fit the mould would have likely been shot or PTS rather than worked with like we do now and society overall is completely different - there is no comparing "then" to "now".

I am just responding to the videos you have posted demonstrating what you perceive is a great example of Koehler training. If it's not about the dog's performance in those videos, then why are you using them to demonstrate your point? Clearly the aim of the training in those videos was to train a dog for obedience competition. You wouldn't stop in the middle of the street to lay down a pile of UD scent articles and ask the dog to find a piece of leather on command. How do you know what those dogs behaviour is like outside of the obedience ring?

The dog is isn't looking at the handler? lol. How do you suppose the dog remains in heel if it wasn't paying attention to the handler? Some of us are unconcerned to have a dog stare up at our faces in a trained display of adoration. There is a clear disconnect between dog and handler in that video and it's sad that you can't see that. Look how the dog looks around when it's left in the stand for COP, it's bored and disengaged with the handler, it's just going through the motions. Look how slowly it responds to commands, it takes a century to drop - if that's work you are happy to except with your own dog that is your prerogative, but don't try to tell me that is a great example of a good working partnership between dog and handler, or that training with methods like that produces the best results.

The dog scored 196.5 Obviously American judges are all incompetant fools as well, no doubt. Too bad there's no points to be scored for the dog's attitude in the ring or for speedy responses to commands etc. I see dogs like that at trials all the time, I honestly find it really sad that anyone would watch that vid and think that's an example of awesome work.

No that's not what I said nor what my original comment about getting the best out of your dog was referring to. What originally prompted my comment that training should be about getting the best out of your dog was itsadogslife saying that they would be happy with a dog that worked like the one in the second vid they posted. I asked why, because to me, training should be about getting the best out of your dog, and IMO, I would be shocked if that video was the best that dog had to give. Why wouldn't you want to get the best out of your dog?

When I am talking about getting the best out of your dog, I am not saying the dog needs to remain in drive or something for that to be the 'best'. IMO it is about the attitude we take to training anything with our dogs, in my mind it doesn't matter what you are training, you should be trying to use the methods that suit your dog the best and get the best out of them. Having a dog that can remain calm and well behaved in every day situations is still part of getting the best out of your dog, IMO.

What makes you assume that my training goal is specifically or solely aimed at competition? If you want to train specifically to win competition then fine. The dog in that video was not trained specifically or solely for competition. It doens't matter what you are aiming for, shouldn't you always want to get the best out of your dog?

It's goes beyond the dog having fun for me. I know if my dog worked like that we"d get beaten by better dogs all the time. For me training is about getting the best out of your dog, watching the dogs in the Koehler vids I find it hard to believe that is the best those dogs can be.

Yes. To be honest I find that quite sad. You certainly wouldn't be likely to win with a dog like that against any top competitors here, and there is so much room for improvement that I am confused why you'd never aim for a higher standard or to at least have a better dog. If that's the best koehler training can produce, I am majorly underwhelmed.

The dog in the above video did win the trial lol. Perhaps all the other dogs were trained with clickers? Regardless of what methods the other competitors used, the standard was obviously very low if the dog in that video scored the highest. It certainly wouldn't have won against any of the top handler teams here in Australia. Would you really be happy with a dog like that? I am quite baffled why you'd prefer a dog that worked to such a low benchmark when there are other methods that will give you a better quality dog, with more reliability and faster responses to commands etc.

For me regardless if the dog is "having fun" I look at the video you posted and think yuck, that work is just plain bad. I wouldn't be happy if my dog responded so slowly to commands, and I choose to use the methods I use because I honestly believe they build a better, more reliable dog and produces better quality work. You only have to look at the top winning triallers across the country to see what methods they use. If koehler was so great, why aren't all the winning competitors winning with his methods?

Sorry, itsadogslife, but I watch that video and just think 'yuck'. At best that dog is going through the motions. Where is the engagement with the handler? The dog isn't even looking at the handler, it's responses to commands is slow, I really struggle to understand why anyone would prefer that dog to one that is up, happy, works with a good attitude, has focus and drive and clearly loves to work. I am not saying every dog has to look like Michael Ellis's Mal, but even my beagle has a better working attitude than the dog in that video.

Who here has referred to using 'purely reward based systems'?

I agree, I thought this was a thread about Koehler training specifically.

Yep got it JJ, thanks!

I don't really have any questions aside from, do you really think that is good work? To be honest if that is the video that is held up as an example of how amazing Koehler training is, it's pretty unimpressive. Thanks JJ!

itsadogslife do you have any video you can show us of your dogs or other dogs working using Koehler methods that you think are good and displays the benefits of the method? Genuinely interested as I haven't really seen any dogs trained exclusively with Koehler methods.

Where did I write that. I'm having a discussion. Your first post is quite clearly telling LMSW she is doing the wrong thing with her puppy. Having met LMSW, her puppy and understanding the training program she is implementing with him I'm 100% confident she is doing the right thing. Her puppy greets people all the time and is very well socialised, but that doesn't mean she has to let every person that approaches have a pat. I personally don't want my dogs learning that every person we pass is someone that will want to pat them. Each to their own, we all have different ways of doing things.

I don't see anywhere that LMSW has said she doesn't allow people to pat her dog, she just doesn't let everyone who comes up to them pat him. I don't see how that is going to turn her dog into an unsocialised mess that can't cope with anything. I've recently met LMSW's pup and he's a great puppy and she is doing a great job with him. What she is doing is clearly working for her and her pup.

Everyone has a different approach to raising a puppy, and also different goals. I love puppies and want to smoosh them all (LOL) but I'd ask first and if the owner didn't want me to pat their puppy for whatever reason I'd be cool with that too. After all, it's not my puppy! IMO we should try to control our puppies socialisation experiences as much as is realistically possible. I got to meet LMSW's pup a couple of weeks ago (and I got puppy cuddles too) and he's a great little pup, she is doing very well with him

Regardless of whether you care if people pat your puppy or not, I am with LMSW. People shouldn't get annoyed with you for asking them not to pat your dog, and I think it's rude (not to mention dangerous) for people to assume they can pat any dog they come across without asking, especially when it's kids that run over and try to pat your dog without asking. ETA: LMWS maybe you should get one of the DT works harnesses that have the 'in training' or 'give me space' patches you can velcro onto it