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Thanks heaps crash test dummy- same with Grover with agility-won't be the fastest dog but loves it. It is especially good for me to see him out there cos' of his breathing problems. Will contact the club-ta

Yep-no problems when carrying something-especially good when we have non-dog people over. I like that their active- a lot of breeds would be too quiet for me! I find most people see them and want one. I'm leaving it- thanks though-you feel like you are alone. They aren't that common here-so their isn't people to ask.

Yes Erny- I totally agree- we have been saying to ourselves- we need to get back to what we were taught- but not acting on it. I took him tonight at a time when I thought that there would be a low stimulus time and he ran off- so it stops now! I'm using the long line at the park every time. I think I have generalised his training as I have a special small park or at home that I train him at (no off lead dogs). He has never really listened at the "fun" parks, looking back. I don't take it as criticism at all-this is valuable advice. We are dog novices-so all advice is helpful and this only reinforces what our behaviouralist says too- she also said we have to train ourselves. It only upsets me as i am trying hard but I feel that lack of knowledge stops me (i.e. recognising my own behaviour for what it is). I have found this forum to be excellent-as these posts are awesome and i will be rereading as needed. Where I live (and probably everywhere) every random person is an expert. This advice from yourself, Working Setter and Tangwyn makes sense and is easy to apply. I'm looking forward to the dog that I know he can be-and I'm working hard to achieve that. Sometimes you just get caught up in (especially if you have never had a dog before and if you only have one) in seeing them as a fur child not a dog. Very easy to do and I don't know how society has shifted from "dog outside-dog is a dog" into "our dog is a fur person" because our situation (loving too much) is common (according to our trainer and the general public that I see). Thanks heaps-will be refering to the posts often.

Hey-great sometimes I feel like I have a freak but it is kinda funny. Grover will lick the glass doors too and get his tongue stuck Thanks Tangwyn too- having no help from the breeder, its great to hear about flat coat things too. I'm glad that you have a licky lick dog too Jules P -imagine our dogs together-no baths needed!

I haven't been doing it every time as he likes to get a really good run- and if I know it is a quiet time at the park no problems, or down the river/beach. I haven't worried as I know when he's going to do it- I don't like it-but I managed it. It is hard to play with others on a long line and he is an only dog. Anyhoo-long lead here I come.

Seriously-Grover can lick-he even chews the ears of a few beagle and wiemeraners (sp?) cos' they are long and floppy! He will lick until the dog has a soaked face. JOsh and Grover would have a ball-we'd have two soaked dogs. Yes-am off to work on recall now- wish Grover was that consistent as Josh. At least other flat coat owners have that problem. :

Yes-Ws I totally agree-serious faults-I am reading up on TOT (pinned post). Yes I agree with corection and i will go to him and I can catch him too. The snatch of the treat was when he was a pup but it is very naughty and he would probably do the same given a chance. Yes-I agree about a serious correction rather than a series of little ones and if we were a bit stricter when he was little-he would have a good consistent recall now. What I don't understand is how he can be great at agillity and ob. training and then crap at the park with lots of dogs. There's lots of feral dogs there but it is the only off leash park with good space. It is not fenced. He is our first dog so I guess you are bound to have mistakes. We just never wanted to go the too harsh path- so I guess somewhere along the line- Grover has seen himself as an equal. I agree with the posts and have been practising. If I took him on a long line- do I do it everytime or only at high stimulus times?

Yes Tangwyn-plot thickens! Sep anxiety vet believed (research hospital vet) linked to the neurological problems he has (i.e LP)- so is also on drugs to control this area (plus the training). (This has been decided in consultation with behaviouralist and two specialist vets-don't worry) Enry-actually he can't wear a collar anyway because of his LP- he has to wear a harness. So- I will have to leave that one. Yes Tangwyn he is intelligent-learns very quickly-so obviously reinforced this quite quickly. Do you use a long line every time- or should I take it with me and only use it when it is a high stimulus time i.e. lots of dogs there? Erny-am working on it definitely- we both realised how we have slipped back Our problem is 'loving him too much'-e.g. when he seeks a pat we give it to him-walking past - he looks really cute give him a hug- free affection-not earnt. At the heart of the problem though is we nearly lost him with the LP and realistically at any time his heart can give up because it has to work overly hard or the paralysis could become worse. Sounds like an excuse but I guess that's how we feel and we have to train ourselves and not the dog! We feel that everyday is precious with him. But anyhoo- no excuses - off to practise the recall with the naughty flat coat!

No-I'm not a member of the club- am in WA. Well, it doesn't seem to be a big deal if the others are doing it- I'll leave him be. It does make it worse if i tell him off. Recall is the key to get him away from dogs that their owners don't like it.

You didn't say that Erny-WS- did. I stuffed up and wrote in the wrong place-sorry . Yes- I am overattentive at home- huge fault! Am trying hard to back off on attention due to his separation anxiety (don't worry-had a good but expensive behaviouralist help us) but have actually regressed (me and OH) and am giving too much attention again. Sometimes he even snatches a treat and takes off again ;) So I would say that we are quite low in his pack order in regards to recalls.

Yes-I do Ob training too! You know WS I never thought of that- my instructor may help me withh a trained dog. He is certainly back on the lead in a high stimulus situation-low no probs-mid level will be testing it out. Erny the driving off bit would work but my only help would be the OH and he loves him too much to care if I leave. What do you mean correct him? smack, drop stay or back on lead and head home? I could adminster quickly- I am a fast runner! I've never really known what do re; correction wise with running off. Like, all you read in books is don't punish for not coming or the dog won't want to come to you etc etc. Tangwyn- some very dominant dogs at park (where the problem is)- if I don't get the timing right- Grover won't get the food and he will get bitten (Is off lead park) . Dogs follow me cos' I have the treats! But I am taking squashed cooked sausage. Sounds dumb- but how do I use a long lead at the park with lots of dogs? His recall is great without lots of dogs- do I use the line all the time? or just in that situation (I have a long line) Erny this has definitely crept up again- and it stops here-I am sorting it out once and for all- I want a good dog at the park. I don't know about the e collar- I would stuff up the timing I think-I'd rather pay a pro trainer- then I can learn how to do it with training and build doggy skills. Sorry guys-this is really bothering me- Tangwyn-this would solve the licking problem if I could call him out of it-you're right.

WS- this sounds bad- but I don't personally know that many people with dogs- and no one with what I would call well trained. The people at the park just let their dogs go- and I only know them for a polite chit chat. We go to agility training- he recalls there- do you think that is Mid level? Seems quite exciting-lots of dogs-barking etc. Just don't know where to get a well trained dog. to practise with...Any other Mid level ideas?

Having the same problem- what do you do when the time when your dog is naughty when there is lots of dogs (i.e. the distraction) and you want to train in this time- i.e. it is dangerous to have a long line (made of whatever material) and food around other dogs. (A few of the dogs at the park are food agressive.) They mill everywhere and when I call him and he comes so do about 2 or 3 others- for the food. I really want to deal with this as I want a dog that i can trust everytime. His recall is superb when there is not the high stimulation of lots of dogs- but I want it every time. Any suggestions? (He is not that fussed on toys etc. either-this is not high value enough to make him leave the exciting dogs). I attend obedience training every week-his recall is fine there too-even if there are distractions.

Thanks guys-recall-totally agree. I don't let him go near unfamiliar dogs and start licking etc. He's never been bitten-there's lots of regulars and they tolerate or tell him off. Just is annoying with other dogs- he must get some pleasure/reinforcement out of it or he wouldn't do it Other owners vary in their vigilance- but I'm always watching- he's pretty full on-so I have to keep an eye out anyway. The licking of us isn't too bad and he would love to lick the cat if she would let him! If it is the breed and that's the worst I've got than I can live with that- but I just wondered if I should be doing anything about it. It is rude behaviour to some dogs and not to others- I just watch the other dogs body language too. Lookout Grover-here comes recall practise! (he was great again tonight- I think the worst time is the high excitment times- e.g. favourite dogs or lots of dogs etc. ) It's hard with Grover sometimes- having never had a dog before and not being able to ask his breeder about behaviours that are flat coat stuff makes you think you are the only one out there- maybe I expect too much-like expect him to have no quirks.

Grover is going throught the same thing- he is 18months old. We let down our guard I think, thinking we had done the hard stuff and here it is again! Exactly things like- recall good now bad bad bad! Drop- apparently optional, etc. Am currently rewriting the 'good dog contract' with Grover

Yep-licks all the time- gets a 'soft' look in his eyes and licks - like with a tragic face :rolleyes: As Tangwyn said I think it is flat coat thing. Firstly, recall is going to improve! But yes- I was letting other dogs do the "telling off" and they haven't bitten yet. I also thought he may grow out of it- didn't happen He is really social and has been since we got him but I don't understand why he is not reading body language and stopping! i have no problems intervening as I am right there anyway and always watch him but I don't know- do I just leave it? I told him off for doing it tonight at the park and is got somewhat better-but he really wants to do it- not often but there is the odd person who doesn't like their dogs face getting washed and that's fair enough. This is just my thoughts and it is a human take but its like those kids at school that bounce around saying "LIKE ME, PICK ME, PLAY WITH ME ME ME!!!" and trying to force a dominant dog to like him and play with him.

I don't want him to not be submissive but i don't want him to get bitten by another dog either from not reading the warning signs that they are fed up (e.g. stiff body, growling etc.) He will ignore and keep going and the other dogs don't like it. Yes- Tangwyn recall was pretty good 95% rate- too social-then recently regressed badly. Tried it tonight and it was great- depends if his best friends are at the park or not. Got to go back to the call and treat thing. Licking doesn't bother me and Grover is unbelievably popular at the park-everyone just says "Oh that's Grover" he's just a pup (18months later) but I want him to read dog body language better. Even if he never does that the recall is going to get better or else. He has always been naughty about the recall- that is the one thing that I have had to work on consistently from the beginning. If he's by himself- he's the best- other dogs e.g. goldies he is bad bad bad!

Yes- he licks their mouth and with certain dominant dogs- does lie down and then when they 'appear' to let him up- he starts licking. He has been socialising with unthreatening dogs since a pup (I was very careful who he was with) but this makes it worse as they let him lick. I don't get a chance to reward as he doesn't stop. There are only a few dogs he doesn't do it to- namely similar age and non threatening yet not too submissive (very playful ones). If they are really submissive too- he bullies them (stands over- lifts up tail and fur goes up) so I go and get him and keep walking. He is really really soft and sensitive to train and live with- so I'm trying to keep his confidence up too. Frustrating.

Hi everyone- right from a 12week old puppy Grover would lick other dogs faces at the park. He would lick until they got sick of it and ran off or growled etc. He has not grown out of it. I now grab him and keep walking as it really annoys most other dogs. He is particularly bad when he meets a dominant male- he will try and lick until they snap. (I have learnt to read their warning signs and grab him and keep walking). It is now unacceptable to other dogs as they tolerant of him as a pup but he is nearly 18months old now. I will not let him keep doing it (I do intervene) but he goes right up to these dogs and then has to roll over and really really submit. He then can't move until they back off and let him. I go over and break it up (as in distract other dog (nicely)) and grab Grover and keep going. The other owners do not have a problem with Grover. But I do; it is not safe for him to continue to do this; and he annoys the same type of dog all the time. Either really dominant or a gundog type. Working dogs (e.g. border collies) can't stand him. He is now not allowed off lead until recall its better but even when his recall was good he had this behaviour. What can i do?

The love of a flat coat- instant and forever. Run free Jess.

Well, I could be wrong but it seems too open to misinterpretation.

thanks- still don't like it, i just taught grover to drop and roll instead. why would you need to dominate like that? i mean - what was the original purpose?

Is an alpha roll where you put the dog on it back and hold it there to "dominate" it? (I've just read the "Destraint " topic). If it is- it makes me very uncomfortable. When we first got out puppy now a dog- over a year ago, 2 vets, 2 puppy schools and one behaviouralist recommended it. I wouldn't do it as I don't like the idea of it. Also, looks like you could get bitten. This has probably already been asked but I'm relatively new- sorry of it has been already asked.

Ignoring worked for Grover too- I just kept walking or at home replaced it with a toy and he just got out of the habit but he was a bandit for fighting and chewing it!

Thanks for the help- went to vet and she said allergies again- so he got a cortisone injection and antihistamines for a couple of weeks. Also have to bath him in malaseb shampoo once a week.