Gayle.

I'm happy to learn other training methods and I'm happy to use other training tools I'll not close my mind to anything but I won't knowingly break the law and use a prong collar. They might be fantastic, they ARE NOT LEGAL where I live. I also won't go to a trainer, not now but I certainly won't close my mind to it in the future. If and when I need one I'll do some research and find one who I think will suit me and what I want to learn. At the moment I have taught myself what I need to know and am refining it day by day. But I prefer to do it myself, I'm not you, I'm not like you and probably the only thing we have in common is our reason for reading these forums and that's our love for our dogs. The OP asked about what training devices people had used and their experiences with them, I responded. In doing so the topic got way off course as it often does on these forums. So be it, she found out what she needed to know, I hope she improves her sales rate. I think if you go into a pet shop and the sales person wants to keep her job, she'll sell you what you're asking for. A GOOD salesperson who cares about the welfare of the dog will ask the dog to be brought in to be correctly sized and fitted and will explain how to use the device safely. A good employer will have his staff trained by the manufacturers of the devices in how to fit and use them. A pet supply store is there firstly to make a profit. Referring people away from the store does not make them a profit.

I don't have any experience with dog trainers. I've never been to one. I have no idea who or what constitutes a good one but I'd be quite happy to attend a seminar if there were any in my area (I can promise you there aren't), but on the whole my doggie and I are quite happy doing it by ourselves. I'll just buy a few more books and go to the obedience club and we'll figure the rest of it out ourselves.

Yes, a quick jerk on the correction chain when he started to make the lead taut , the dog would pause, look back and I'd praise him for focussing on me, then move beside him, use the word "heel" and more praise for being beside me and walking on a loose lead. By the time I got to the club and past the puppy class (where they really don't teach walking on a loose lead, mostly just sit and socialise the puppies) I had got him to the stage of not pulling much anyway and I just worked on tidying it up. We did hours and hours of walking up and down the driveway, turning quickly once he tightened the lead, turning erratically so he wouldn't know which way I was going, keeping him focussed on me and which way I was walking....so he HAD to stay beside me to keep up with me, all the time praising when he was beside me, praising for being on the loose leash. I have no idea if this is the right way but I did see immediate results, just the long term ones took longer to get there. And walking to heel with distractions took a while because being a puppy, everything was more interesting than concentrating on being beside me. We got there though. Sorry, I thought this was a a training forum where people willingly shared their knowledge and experiences. My mistake. ETA, I use the word HEEL to describe walking beside me on a loose leash as it's quicker and easier to say to the dog than "Walk on a loose leash". He understands that HEEL means walk beside me. He also understand the word RETURN means wherever he is, he's to walk towards me, along my right side, around my back and sit at my left side in the HEEL position. Maybe I'm using the wrong terms but they are the ones easy for me to remember and easy for him to learn and differentiate beween. And I use the word COME to call him to me as HERE sounds too much like HEEL.

Walking beside me on a loose lead. Not formal heeling (or that stupid looking waltz handlers do with their dogs where the dog never takes their eyes of the handlers face). Mostly verbal praise, food rewards and all positive. They prefer a collar over a halti and a lot of them seem to really like the correction chain.

I did ask how to, but only because you kept referring to it, not because I really needed to know. I thought it might be interesting to know for future reference.

As I already said, I don't live in or near Melbourne and have no plans (or no time) to go there aside from to collect a puppy. I already said too, that I prefer to do things myself. I have got my dog to the point of not pulling now, I think we've done OK, but I was responding mostly to the OP's request for personal experiences with non-pulling devices and I was relating my experiences, which were all positive. The device I like the least is the head halter but it has it's uses and I do still use it on occasion. I respect that not everyone likes it, but has everyone actually used it or are you only going by anecdotal evidence? The device I like the most is the Sporn harness because it works, it does not hurt the dog, it's very comfortable for the dog and my experiences with it are all positive. I have not ever used a prong collar as they aren't available where I live and they are also illegal. I won't knowingly break the law. I would like to try one sometime, but not while they are illegal here. Is there anywhere I can read about this miracle method of stopping a dog from pulling without using a non-pulling device as a starter? I'm quite happy to purchase books from overseas as there doesn't seem to be much readily available in Australia, then I can go at my own pace, without having to travel or to make contact with strangers.

Tony, I like your reply but you didn't explain how prong collars are different to haltis. You explained why you consider haltis so bad, but how is the prong collar different? In the end, it still causes the dog discomfort.

I won't be doing that, thanks anyway. The only trip I have planned to Melbourne in the near future is to collect a puppy from the airport and I won't be taking Benson with me.

What is it? I keep hearing about it but no one has ever actually described it to me.

I would agree entirely with this. Before I bought one I did loads of reseach and read the fors and againsts and in the end, decided if I used it sparingly, it might be worth the small investment. And I found it to be a godsend in particular circumstances, but not necessary to use all the time. I agree the potential for injury is there, particularly with a dog that lunges suddenly. Mine doesn't, he just tends to pull harder and harder which makes the halter tighten more and he backs off because he doesn't like it. It is a tool for control....it puts all the control in the owners hands, which is very necessary sometimes with some dogs, but it allows the dog to learn that to pull is not a good thing. Once that point is reached it's a small step to a training tool such as a correction collar and verbal cues.

Yes, but it does have the fleece bits, they are an integral part of the design. If a prong collar didn't have protective blunt caps on the prongs, it would do more than pinch the dog, it would pierce the skin. So they become an integral part of the design to allow it to be used safely.

The one I use has thick fleece sleeves over the "active" parts of the harness, and I've tested it by putting my hand between the harness and the dog while he's wearing it. It just tightens.........it doesn't appear to pinch at all (if it did I wouldn't use it), and it simply stops his front legs from extending. He also has a thick covering of long hair in that region (he's an Australian Shepherd) so there's really no chance that it irritates him. And in fact, I can leave it on him for hours while we're out and when I take it off you'd never know he'd been wearing it, whereas the head collar leaves a fairly visible mark on his muzzle which I can remove by running with my fingers. I have been using it the last couple of nights, after not having used it for months......just because of this thread. And I must admit that I do really like it. It's comfortable for both me and the dog, he CAN pull in it although not hard and it's very easy to correct him without hurting him and it's VERY easy to give positive reinforcement. Walking him is pleasant, and we even tried some training while he was wearing it, and it allows me to give similar corrections that he understands, as a training collar although the tightening sensation is on a different part of his body. When he is walking to heel, all the straps of the harness are loose, as if he was wearing no device unlike the head collar which he can obviously feel all the time, as it needs to be quite tight around his muzzle to be effective.

I have a serious question that requires a serious answer, with no flaming, no sanctimonious posturing and no smart remarks. I am merely interested. Three non-pulling aids. 1. Head halter. Dog pulls, halter tightens around muzzle, dog dislikes the sensation and stops pulling. 2. Sporn harness. Dog pulls, harness tightens around it's chest? muscles (the muscles on it's body where the front legs join). Dog dislikes sensation and can't stretch it's forelegs to stride out, dog stops pulling. 3. Prong collar. Dog pulls, prongs pinch skin around neck, dog dislikes sensation and dog stops pulling. How are two of them NOT training aids and one is an accepted (although illegal in Victoria) training aid to stop a dog from pulling hard on a leash? And yet the cause and effect are all very similar. When I first started to train Benson, I used a webbing training collar, somewhat similar to a Martingale, I think. It was slack around the neck but with two rings to take up the slack when jerked on. The idea was to jerk the leash, dog would come back to my side (in theory) and I'd praise him for walking beside me. Same principle as the correction collar (choke chain). You need the slack to jerk on the chain to give the correction. All good in theory, but they both work on the principle that at some stage, the dog will allow the leash to go slack for a few seconds, long enough to give the correction. Well, that all falls apart when the dog in question pulls so hard and so insistently that there IS no slack in the leash....not EVER! Once I switched to some other non-pulling aids I was able to give positive reinforcement and teach him what HEEL actually meant. Cos while he was wearing the training collar, heel just wasn't a word I could even utter cos he wasn't even remotely close to my heels. At least with a halter on, he was and he learned fast that heel meant stay by my side and keep the leash loose. From there it was a fairly simple process to switch to a correction collar and start giving corrections.

I didn't say I wouldn't recommend professional advice to anyone. I said I would not go to a professional dog trainer myself. I am me, I am not other people, I speak for me and from my own experience. There might be other people the OP is selling non-pulling devices to who have similar views to me, who don't want to go to a dog trainer or who simply don't have access to one. And there might also be ones that want to train their own dog but use a non-pulling device as an interim measure as I've been doing. ETA, for me it's a combination of all your reasons. I don't know anyone who has used a local dog trainer (I am not in a metro area) although one of the vets at the place I take the pets to is a dog trainer. I have no feedback about anyone so I'm not about to drop hard-earned $$$ on something so uncertain. Also I don't like being tied to someone elses schedule when mine is all over the place and likely to change at any minute. Plus I am having a ball doing it myself. Is that so very bad?

Nor do you make a collar and lead unhappy. But you sure can lose the enjoyment by starting to take yourself way too seriously. And my dog certainly isn't unhappy, in fact he's about the most joyous, full of life dog I've ever met. And he and I communicate perfectly well. Why do you think we don't? Just another turn on the subject of training/non-pulling devices. Wouldn't you rather see a family pet taken out for regular walks with a non-pulling device, and taken on regular excursions, than being left in the backyard because he pulls too much? Yes, I can hear you now....."TRAIN THE DOG NOT TO PULL! GET HELP FROM A PROFESSIONAL!" But a lot of people won't. And is it really that detrimental to the dog to wear a Sporn harness and be walked regularly? I think not.

Yep, I know what you mean but I prefer to learn it myself, in my own way and in my own time. Benson and I have graduated from puppies and beginners classes at obedience school, we wouldn't have if he pulled on the lead. A few years ago, I decided to teach myself photography (yes this is relevant, bear with me). I bought books, I read forums, I bought some fantastic camera gear and I started to take photos. I became very active on a couple of popular photography forums and entered a lot of online photo challenges. My photos were pretty good and drew lots of comments. They also drew lots of criticism which I learned from. I learned from very experienced amatuers and some very good professionals. The problem was that after a couple of years, instead of enjoying the photos I took, I gradually started to see them as a series of blown highlights, soft edges, slightly out of focus eyes, colour casts, incorrect white balance........I was seeing my photos as a series of massive flaws. I could not sit back and enjoy the photos I took because all I saw were the faults. Also on the photography forums I haunted, I was warned over and over that because I was an amatuer, I should never attempt something so important as wedding photography because if I made mistakes I could completely ruin the newlyweds memories of their special day. Well, one day I finally saw the forest instead of just looking at the trees. I stopped going to photography forums, I photographed some weddings and a couple of other major life milestones, I started to once again enjoy looking at the photos I took and in doing so, started to enjoy my hobby again. Now I have my dog. He's a beautiful boy, very intelligent and my pride and joy. I love hanging out with him, he has such a happy outlook on life that he makes me feel good about being me. He loves me, and he shows that in every wiggle of his body and every wag of his tail. He's very enthusiastic about the things he loves to do with me, including taking a walk. Sometimes he pulls, mostly he doesn't now cos we've been working on it and sometimes I use a tool to make sure he cant pull so that I can take him places where I normally wouldn't. We joined the obedience club which is a big thing for me, cos I am not a club-going person but we both love it. We love spending our Saturday mornings with other people and their dogs, we love that people give up their time to instruct others and we're lucky enough to have some very experienced instructors and obedience judges in the club. In teaching my dog obedience and general life skills, I never ever want to get to the point where I start thinking of him as a "fault". "Pulls on the lead", "has bad recall", "jumps on people". Because I might then stop enjoying the wonderful pet that he is. And I will never pay someone to teach me something I am having such a good time learning myself, even though it might be quicker and easier. I prefer the long way round, enjoying my boy as we go. And knowing that neither of us is perfect but we're a pretty good match anyway. We don't just show up for a once a week class......we work on obedience and his tricks almost every day. Not for long....sometimes half an hour, sometimes a few snatches of 5 minutes here and there, sometimes just while we're out walking. He loves it, but like all young blokes, he can get bored sometimes and when he does I stop the lesson and we do something else. And if the OP would like to sell products to her customers that will fit her customers situations, I can highly reccomend a Sporn harness as being comfortable for the dog but a bit of a bugger to put on.......but it does stop him pulling, and I can also reccomend a Gentle Leader head halter, but learn how to fit one properly and show your customers how to do it. Because if you bang on about how they should pay a professional to teach them how to train their dog, they'll just walk right out the door and go to another pet store and buy what they want there.

I know the preferred way on this forum is to pay a professional to teach your dog, but it's not my way. I prefer to learn it myself, no matter what it is. If it takes longer, so be it. I go to dog obedience club and I really love it, I've had lots of valuable help there but we couldn't start til Benson was 18 weeks old due to his vaccination schedule and by then he was pulling like a steam train. Once I realised it was a problem and started teaching him to walk on a loose lead, I saw results straight away....the results did not take months to happen, but it took months before he stopped pulling all the time. We started our training in the driveway and he wouldn't pull while we were in the driveway.....but as soon as we stepped out of the yard, things got more interesting the more distractions we came across. We simply worked on not pulling towards the distractions.

I agree. I do not have the experience that you have. Benson is the first large-ish dog I've had and he is the first dog I've properly trained, aside from sit and get off the furniture. My previous dogs have been little ones and to be honest, I'd rather they pulled a bit and walked in front of me so I didn't trip over them, I am learning as I go, but it's taking me a while and in the meantime, I can't just put the dog in the cupboard and bring it out to practise not pulling when I have a few minutes to spare each day. So I use tools that allow me to comfortably take the dog with me, socialise him with the rest of the world, without leaving my muscles screaming. In doing so, I have a dog that I can take practically anywhere and know he'll behave. He is confident, friendly, unafraid of the world at large and yet polite and non-threatening to other dogs. He is now 9 1/2 months old and mostly doesn't pull, but sometimes he does and he is immediately corrected. Pay a professional dog trainer? No. I have an Australian Shepherd. They are not a breed known to be agressive, they are highly intelligent and responsive to training and in figuring it out as we go, I've formed a strong bond with my boy and I'm proud of what we've acheived so far. The OP asked what people used to stop dogs pulling so she can help her customers more appropriately. I offered the tools I use in the circumstances I use them. They are the products she is selling, I thought my experience may have been valid as not everyone is a top notch dog trainer with years of experience under their belt and not everyone wants to hire someone to train the dog.

I can't help with the drool but I do the same as Bellasperson and remove the foodbowl if he's not sitting nicely. Also, I don't prepare dog food with dogs in the room because it just encourages them to get overexcited. So keep dog out of room, then once his dinner is ready, place on floor and make him sit still and quiet before he eats.

The major difference is that some things STOP pulling (head collars, Sporn harnesses) and some things make it easier to teach the dog to stop pulling (correction collars, Martingales). If your customers require something to stop the dog from pulling, they're not going to be impressed with being sold a device where they need to spend months training the dog and using the device to provide corrections. And while it's all good and well to say the dog needs training (and I'll be the first to agree with that) training takes time, sometimes months and in the meantime they may want to take their dog out places without having their arm seperated from the shoulder. That's where I find the head halters and Sporn harness come in very handy. I love taking my dog places, but there are places where having a dog straining at the leash is totally inappropriate, not to mention very uncomfortable for me. Using a device to stop him pulling meant that he could come with me and I would know that his behaviour was under control without me having to continually correct him.

I have trained my dog not to pull but it has taken a very long time (6 months) and he still does pull sometimes....when he sees another dog and wants to go say hello etc. Mostly I use a correction collar as that's what the instructors at obedience have been teaching me with. But for times when he absolutely CANNOT pull.....such as if we're in a crowd of people or if my 13yo daughter wants to take charge of him, we use a Gentle Leader head halter. While I realise it's not a training aid, he simply doesn't pull when he's wearing it. For long, leisurely relaxed walks where he can sniff, paddle in puddles, do the doggy stuff he wants to do.....I use a Sporn harness. Another non-training aid but it stops him pulling, and it's comfy for him to wear (unlike the head halter, which he hates). Different tools for different circumstances works best for me.

I use Frontline for fleas, and can't remember what I use for worms, but it definitely doesn't contain Ivermectin. My vet is just a few doors down from my house so when my Aussie Shephed needs worming I pop in there and buy just one dose. They have it noted on his file that he is never to be given a product containing Ivermectin and they also have a note of what brands of worming products he can have.

I had two females together for almost 13 years. It was wonderful! They were not bully breeds though, they were little fluffies. One was definitely dominant but surprisingly, she was the passive one when we were out. The non-dominant one was the one who would have defended her family with her life if she needed to. My girls used to play and play and play. They only time they'd fight was after they'd been to the groomers and they both smelled differently, then I had to seperate them for a few hours til the clean smell wore off. We lost our older girl to a stroke in May.

I made some up on the weekend and started with 4kg of meat and ended up with 6kg of mixture. So 2/3 meat, 1/3 "other stuff" which includes veges, eggs (I added 10), grated cheese, oatmeal, large tub of natural yoghurt. I don't measure quantities, I work on the principle that variety is more important than exact measurements. To 4kg of meat, I added 2 zucchini, 3 carrots, 1/2 a small cooked pumpkin (I add the cooked skin, seeds, pulp as well as the flesh) and a bunch of bok choy, including the leafy green tops.

For dog action shots, my favourite lens is the Canon 200mm F2.8L....not a zoom but to have a tele zoom with an f2.8 aperture, you're looking at more money than I ever want to drop on a lens. My husband uses the Canon 70-200 f4L lens, another excellent one at a reasonable price.