Vickie

just be careful you are not applying the opposition reflex here, it will actually make it him more likely to pull towards the birds. Try to get his attention just before he sees the birds, watch him carefully, you will see the 3 stages I mentioned early, they will also be there when he is on lead as well as off.

I would like to revise my advice as it was given based on the little information you provided. I just watched some of your videos. Rusty looks very well stimulated, well trained, is clearly operant & has good focus on you when there are no distractions. Now you need to work on him when there are distractions. Looks like you have just let him get into bad habits when running free. It's up to you, but personally I very rarely run my Border Collies with a bunch of dogs they don't know & I never let them play before & after training with dogs they don't know. I don't feel they need to play with strange dogs. I have lots of friends with dogs that they run with in controlled situations & I think that is enough for them. As I said before, you need to prevent him from doing the undesireable behaviours. You will find that once you come up with a plan & decide that it will not happen anymore, it is actually quite easy to enforce your new rules. The hardest bit is often just making that decision. You are clearly a good dog trainer, who understands the value of consistency, so just treat this like you have trained him to do other things. Prevent the bad & reward the good. It won't take long.

Thx Persephone . To be honest I am getting tired of the "your dog is out of control b/c it is bred to work" argument. I find it is rarely the case & most people who own or have owned a dog who has truly been bred to work feel the same. I have 2 Border Collies who displayed some of the traits that the OP talks about (and see lots more at agility) but neither were bred to work.

I would forget his breed for a minute & concentrate on the actual issues you are having (which are common to many breeds). I agree, going to see a good trainer will help. He sounds like he needs some firm boundaries & some tricks/sports to stimulate his mind & tire him out. When is he nipping at other dogs? I would stop him doing this immediately. Take away the opportunites he has to do this...No more running loose at training or in the park. He needs to earn this right. Same with the bird chasing...until you have him under control & with a good recall, don't put him in situations where he can run off, chase birds & ignore you. If you watch a dog who chases birds, there are 3 stages: first they haven't see the bird & are responsive to you, second they see the bird & their body stiffens a little, their ears flick, they lower their body a bit, during this 1-2 second stage it is usually possible to get their attention & reward for it, third stage is after they have taken off after teh birds. Calling most dogs at this stage is useless, many of them don't even hear you. Lots of people actually teach their dogs a bad/lack of recall in this situation. If you have ever called him when he is intently chasing birds or other dogs, you have actually taught him that "come" means nothing. The only way to associate a command with a behaviour is to pair it with that behaviour. From now on, I would only call him (and maybe pick another word if come means nothing) when you know he will come or when you are in a position to go & get him. Using a long line will help too. That way he has no choice but to come when you call him. Will he fetch a ball? does he bring it back? teach him that you will only throw it if he puts it in your hand. Lots of tricks...teach him to spin, touch a target, walk backwards, hi five, jump into a box etc ect. There are lots of tricks on the internet. This will tire him out a lot more than running wild. Once you have him to the point where he is focussed on you & trying to work out what you are teaching by offering behaviours, maybe try some agility with him. This will exercise him mind & body. Stop feeding him from a bowl for free. Start feeding him by hand & make him earn his food by doing tricks. If you go for a walk & he is offleash (with no other dogs or birds around), does he stay close? Does he watch for you? If you hid or turned & walked the other way, how long would it take for him to notice?

Thanks Nekhbet, I guess you are right, even though she knows the person it belonged to, it had been worn & it did indeed seem like she thought there was someone in his room.

Last night Trim went to go to my son's room to sleep & went beserk at the doorway. She was barking & growling like crazy & wouldn't go in. Lucky he is a sound sleeper . I went in & sat n the bed & coaxed her in. She was very wary, scenting the air & obviously bothered by something. I managed to get her to the bed but she was still carrying on a bit & seemed to be reacting to a shirt on the bed. It was a hand-me-down shirt that friend's had given my son just yesterday. Once I took the shirt off the bed, she was fine, curled straight up & went to sleep. Surely there are different scents on our clothes all the time? Everything we buy would have someone elses scent wouldn't it? I wonder why she reacted so strongly to this one? She adores the people who gave it to him, it wasn't even a stranger's scent. I guess I will never know...

Coming in late here... to me a qualified trainer is someone who has studied, done a course and passed an assessment, written & practical, to say they are qualified. Saying that, I do not believe qualifications are essential & (as they stand now) are often not what I would be looking for in a dog trainer. I see lots of excellent trainers around with no qualifications, some have a common sense knack & most have a lot of experience. To me the biggest problem is lack of honesty about experience & qualifications. I know trainers with formal qualifications who are willing to take on cases that they do not have the experience to deal with, generally ending in disaster. Most trainers have an area that they are very good at, not many can proficiently instruct in all areas and I think being honest about this is crucial. I am a good agility instructor, probably a better instructor than I am handler. When I take a lesson form someone else, I like to be pushed and as an instructor, I tend to suit people who like to be pushed by me. In other areas, I am generally proficient at handling high drive, hyper, defiant, out of control dogs and improving general manners. I am also generally able to increase motivation in low drive dogs. I am totally uncomfortable & inexperienced with dogs showing human or dog aggression. I don't have teh knowledge or the nerve for it and when I have been asked to help people with aggressive dogs, my answer is always no. It would be dangerous for me to try, both for me, the owner & the dog. I think when anyone is looking for a dog trainer, they need to assess experience of that trainer but also ensure that their method of teaching is suitable for the person's method of learning. If the 2 don't match it can be very difficult. Saying that there are some people who are never going to find someone that suits them, because despite always having issues, they still believe they know more than anyone can teach them. They continue to ask questions and continue to refute or argue with every solution that is presented to them.

That's an interesting statement. The way I see it, our dogs are a product of what we do with them. I don't doubt that some breeds & individuals are more challenging than others but none are born with competition agility skills. They are what we make them and as Katie says, to get effort, we need to put in effort.

OT OMG I'm coming to SA...how on earth did you not get a refusal for that DW??? We sometimes get a refusal if the dog so much as looks at us while running in a straight line.

I used to think that RC were only appropriate when you were behind the dog, but have been convinced otherwise over the last 12 months. We did an exercise at the recent Ronda Carter seminar where we taught a RC from a standstill with one jump. Unlike a flowing natural RC that you can just do on course with little preparation before hand, it has to be taught to be effective, but now that we have trained it, it has become a very useful tool for a number of us.

How long did you try it for? I think Kavik's suggestion is certainly the one I would recommend. The only different being that I would pair it with a word...mine is "go on". If your dogs will chase a ball, then pairing that behaviour with a cue is all you are doing. You need to start easy & gradually build it up. It takes time, like most things. Another game is to beat the dog to a reward object. Again, this is something you need to build up. Start from one pace away & increase distance. If they get there first they get it, if you beat them, they don't get it. All styles will have a method of teaching the dog to go ahead & I don't see the methods varying that much. The other thing to remember when you are actually running is that your own speed is not really what makes a dog drive forward, it is your focus...ie, you can run very fast but if your shoulders are pointing slightly towards the dog, it will not be as effective as running slower & mentally focussing on a point ahead. There are many many physically challenged handlers who are able to project lines to their dogs brilliantly. They may not be able to move fast, but they project direction very well. Not sure if that makes sense, it is hard to explain, much easier to demonstrate.

I think my dogs use the situation to determine what level of drive they go into. In training at home & for tricks etc if I want to rev them up, I use the word ready...but I think it is redundant for training elsewhere or at trials, just the sight of agility equipment is enough to tell them which mode they are in. I tend not to rev them up too much, they are already close to over the top. Trim especially can get very worked up, she often trembles violently at the startline in anticipation so I tend to try to keep her calm. Likewise on sheep, I certainly don't want to hype them up as that would be counter productive to the way I want them working and their attitude is totally different to that of agility training anyway. For basic commands at home, I don't want the intensity that other activities bring. I want compliance, nothing more & nothing less.

no, you did nothing wrong... I was just asking your permisssion to copy your post about Dizzy to DST (another forum), where sport suitable rescues can be posted.

Is it OK to cross post this Blue Collie?

I think it is almost impossible to accurately diagnose fear in an image. Is this dog showing fear?

Here are a couple of pics I took of Flynn at the Nationals last year. He & Amanda were lovely to watch

I don't do agility in the rain as I feel it's dangerous for my dogs. I have worked sheep in the rain many times & if I did obedience would probably still train in the rain. I actually like being out in the rain with my dogs, except that it takes my boys hours & hours to dry.

So true. This should not be an argument. You asked for advice on a problem, because you don't have the skills or experience to solve it yourself...if you did it would not be a problem would it? and BTW a dog who bites too hard IS a problem. The solution has been given. Don't wrestle with this dog. No argument necessary. As far as your original question, yes it is possible to wrestle with a dog and teach them not to use their mouth. None of my dogs ever use their mouth on me because I have the skills and understanding to train them not to, and they have never been shut down in the process. My advice remains, go take some lessons from someone who has experience in dog training, for Kivi's sake, as well as your own.

ADAA has just started running in WA RM. They have held one, possibly 2 trials so far.

I cannot imagine how this game could ever be a good thing to play with a dog. He may not bite you too hard but it is inevitable that he will mistake a signal from someone else to play this game...sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But you are suppressing him, every time he bites you, you react & he shuts down. I would be very concerned if I was shutting my dog down in an attempt at fun, it kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? He will enjoy any games that you make enjoyable for him. It is up to you to achieve this. Let's see, tugging games, retrieving games, targetting games, shaping games, tricks, sporting activities. As I said, he will enjoy whatever you make rewarding. Use your imagination. My dogs will go wild to play a game with me & a single leaf. Obviously the leaf by itself is not fun, it is what I do with it that makes it a fun game. Have you ever taken any training lessons with this dog? Sounds like it wouldn't hurt to have a couple of lessons with a motivational trainer. It sounds like you have some minor relationship issues that would be better solved sooner rather than later.

Sounds like it is not a good idea for you to be wrestling with him. If he is biting too hard then it's not on your terms. There are a thousand other things you can do with him that he will enjoy that do not involve his teeth.

I thought I would start this in a new thread so as not to hijack the other one anymore. Agreed, I think we do have more BC's jumping flat than kelpies up here. ;) The kelpies here that knock bars tend to knock them due to spinning, barking and going sideways over jumps (and we certainly have BC's doing that too). I'm coming to Victoria then! :p I am sick of tight crap, it is so much less fun. Agreed. There are lots of high drive dogs with preservation & control. It is a much safer option & one that I will always strive for. I'm sure it's a combination of things but I think it can be line related. I feel some BC's are physically too heavy & not structurally suitable to match the drive in their head. I would class one of my older dogs in this category. There are also BC's being bred for agility with no off switch. I think you have to be a bloody good trainer & handler to successfully manage this type of dog, they are not the type of dogs I want. My older 2 BC's were bar knockers. One was a chronic flat jumper and has no sense of self preservation. The other was certainly a bit more controlled but is not what I would call a highly athletic dog, his drive was high, but his body could not keep up with it. I did no grid work with them & was learning as a handler so gave plenty of late signals & poor handling. We also spent a lot of time training on low jumps. My younger 2 both have a very nice jumping style, they are not flat & will only knock an occasional bar if my timing is out. I think they are built a lot better than my older dogs. Both were given very basic jump grids where I taught them to collect & extend and we did rear end awareness. I have done no remedial gridwork with them as they have never needed it. Neither have done much jumping on low heights, I just waited until they were physically mature before I jumped them & I pretty much went straight to full height. In general, I think dogs knock bars due to: poor conformation lack of consequence/self preservation they have never been taught to jump, collect, extend lack of rear end awareness they were started with remedial gridwork that was not necessary & actually ruined their natural style poor handling choices poor handler timing

It will be interesting to see if you still think this after competing for a while. While this may be true of your kelpie, I am not sure it is accurate from what I have seen. I would say that as a rule kelpies & BC's drop more bars than any other breed out there, many of them will run into things including uprights & handlers and b/c of the speed they are often moving at, their reaction times to cues can in some cases be slower than other breeds. Sorry to disagree, but I think drive & temperament come into it too, there are lines of dogs that have such drive they really don't care about running into things & I would probably put some lines of kelpies at the top of this list.

I would recommend Helen Nicholsen, she practises at a number of vets around Sydney, is a very nice person & is fully qualified with a Masters in canine physio. http://www.k9physio.com/ Many agility people are choosing to use her with great results.