Steve

If that's directed at me sorry but :laugh: I never said anything about breeding champions.......I merely said it would be nice to know WHY the OP would want to breed.....for pets, sport, show whatever, I personally don't care but when they ask about others and don't give any info about themselves then someone will question them. Not the first time and certainly won't be the last that happens here. I was just as curious as to why they would love to breed Staffords, what would be their goal? Surely there would be some reason WHY they would love to just breed? Um - no it wasn't directed at you. Good grief I didn't even notice that you had said anything !

Fact is there isnt a right or wrong reason for someone to want to breed dogs - its all about them knowing what risks are associated with those reasons and goals and ensuring they don't compromise on what is best for the dogs. I want to breed a champ comes with the same amount of risks and issues to take into account as I want to breed for some extra money or I want the kids to experience the joy of see new life born. You dont have to agree with one person's motivation as long as we all agree on a desired outcome. If you truly do believe that wanting to breed a champion gives someone instant credentials on breeding great dogs that's a far cry from reality. No one starts out knowing all they need to know and even after playing around with it for over 35 years I learn something new every day and I certainly still don't agree with everyone else's idea on what it takes to do the right thing by the breed and the dogs . If we all have the same goals and the same reasons and the same methods we end up with all the same dogs and no where to go if something nasty turns up. The only thing that needs to be consistent and never taken for granted or scrimped upon is what is best for the dogs we own and breed regardless of what reason we can articulate.

As I said earlier, The accusation has been made. Put up or shut up. Someone needs to be held accountable. For the action or for the accusation. The fact is there isn't any proof that people have been illegally docking, there haven't been a great number of charges laid and quite frankly I can't remember any ANKC exhibitor being charged, after the very first example hung out to dry years ago. So it looks to be nothing more than someone carting out their bucket of sour grapes and chucking it in the direction of the ANKC. If there isn't any proof then accuser should be held to account for bringing the membership into disrepute. Is the "example hung out to dry" of which you speak the well known judge & breeder that I heard of? Agree.

So was it referred to the police? Were they charged?

No, it won't. When the new laws fail because no one polices them then new new laws will be passed. Then when those fail, there'll be new new new laws. And so on. Yep 100% correct. Least it will give us something to talk about for many years to come - might be all we can do as we loose more rights and have more restrictions on where we can take our dogs and what we can and cant do with them.

But it's so much easier passing new laws, Steve. Yeah same old same old.

Go ahead blow yourselves up - who needs animal rights?

Given the docking laws won't be repealed its pointless even bringing it up. Yep - the laws will stand and Victorian laws prevent anyone taking a dog which has been living in that state even for a minute to another place and having it docked with out the necessary Victorian council approval and taking it to a dog show.

Agreed.

I would also like to say when we were doing Pacers Foster Carers were the back bone of everything we did and each time I said thank you I always felt I wasn't using the right words to be able to say how thank ful I was.It never felt like it was enough to try to make them feel the way I really wanted them to feel. When I think of some of the things some of those people did to help dogs and the people who owned them there really isn't a way to convey how wonderful and how appreciative I felt. Having the ability to ring them and all of the other foster carers who have been nominated over the years has been the most magical thing for me and I hope for them it has helped them to feel as appreciated as they really are .I always get more tears out of foster carers than any other category.

And nominated for Foster Carer of the year to say "you beauty" out loud. Still waiting for your bit to send of to the judges.

Like it or not - Fact is these dogs are recognised ,they are considered purebred by your system - if they were not those who own them and bred them would have never gone near them.

Every rule of animal husbandry says when you cross em back to their own breed its a purebred again in 4 generations - how do you equate what you think with whats going on in the UK with open stud books? .Because of our agreements with the UK every breed could have a cross bred litter in it and still be registered as a purebred. Bob tailed boxers are on a purebred registry and they are up to around 20 generations past that one only cross. For anyone not to consider what we have today with bob tailed boxers as purebred is nothing more than ridiculous http://www.thekennel...tem/3672/23/5/3 Pilot scheme for registering dogs of unverified parentage A pilot scheme which could enhance genetic diversity has been announced by the Kennel Club. It will allow purebred unregistered dogs to be registered on the Breed Register on a case by case basis. This is a return to the position which existed forty years ago when similar rules were in force. Enhancing genetic diversity The move, approved by the Kennel Club General Committee last year, will if used, enhance genetic diversity by widening breed gene pools and allowing new bloodlines to be introduced within breeds. Under the new pilot scheme, every successful application will be admitted to the register with three asterisks next to its name. Asterisks will be applied for three further generations, in order to identify the fact that there is unknown or unregistered ancestry behind a dog.

The only time my boys change is if there is a bitch on heat close to them. I have a desexed male beagle who was never used at stud prior to desexing and he also changes and actually will mate with the girls if he gets the chance.

Seriously - all they need to do is police current laws. Dogs shouldn't be able to attack anyone whether they are entire or not.

So how, in the absence of a specific prohibition on the exhibition of unlawfully docked dogs, does the ANKC ensure that it's not encouraging its members to flout the legislation? Point taken - however how very sad that they have to agree that some ANKC members will do the wrong thing and so require more than the law to discourage them.

Agreed - however, if there is ANY question what ever that any members are guilty of animal cruelty the onus is on them to investigate and do what animal welfare inspectors would do if the member is likely to be guilty. There is no point in them bringing in any regs which puts all members under suspicion and admits that they know some members are guilty but they do nothing about it. Anything else is inviting animal welfare to look closer and consider all exhibitors or docked breeds potentially guilty - it also has the ability to impact on many more issues if it is considered impossible or unlikely for the ANKC to police their own members.It has the potential to have exemptions for registered breeders removed and for all to be under greater suspicion and targeted.

Yep everyone knows show dogs suffer at the hands of those who show and who breed dogs only for the way they look and there is no way to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Doesn't matter that we have heard of no one being charged for deliberately breaking puppies tails and no one can prove that the law is being broken - no doubt if it were some fellow exhibitor would have dobbed them in by now- its great that there are some on the board who want to make it public and stop this and best to prevent all of them being shown "in case". - except whether the vote makes the idea float or not there are now known publicly to be ANKC members who are animal abusers in the show ring. Makes no difference to me - I no longer breed a docked breed because I felt breeding them and having to leave their tails on was cruelty and I dont show. Except that this impacts on all ANKC members because purebred breeders are tagged with this just as they were via PDE and one taints the entire group especially some entire breeds. However, thankfully, I know a whole group of people most of whom show their dogs who would never ever do such things and any suspicions or accusations would be investigated in very quick time in order to protect the dogs, them and the rest of the membership.

Many dogs are registered on main overseas and can only go on limited - including non recognised colours etc. How do you think they will limit which dogs can be shown if they dont put all docked dogs on limited register? Easy, The steward disqualities them at the gate. However their progency shouldn't, & don't, suffer for the sins of their progenitors. You don't really think every cropped import is automatically placed on the limited register do you? They are imported for their bloodlines with no attempt to enter them in a show. There are cropped imports listed in the the D.O.L breed profiles as available for stud duties. Bitches whelp whole puppies (most of the time) & this proposal is to ensure they remain whole if they are to be part of the ANKC show scene. Any breeder who imports a dog from mismarked parents or those of highly undesirable colours would be stupid wouldn't they? Locally bred puppies with mismarks or colours are placed on the limited register anyhow, so what's the difference? While I don't agree with the law, there are still quite a few docked exhibits in the rings & I imagine this proposal is a one size fits all solution to cut thru the bullshit. "No docked exhibits will be allowed to be exhibited at ANKC sanctioned shows....end of game" So just as any dog which suffers a malady & has to be neutered for any reason is ineligle to compete in the real section of a dog show, so will any which need their tails docked for any reason. Sure makes sense so why would anyone want to stand up for their rights or be concerned they are being judged as lesser beings and potential animal abusers anyway - right?

Sheridan as you know I agree with this but everything about the ANKC pushes people to show their dogs to be able to properly assess their breeding potential. Most people who show believe this as well and whether I think they are mistaken and its possible to assess the dog without the need of showing them isn't the point - this is about taking the right for them to show their dogs even if the dogs are docked according to all laws - here or elsewhere. It means a withdrawal of any dog docked here as well as over seas from competition. It means every person who owns a dog with a docked tail is assumed to be a person who deliberately commits acts of extreme cruelty and in case someone somewhere might deliberately break a tail everyone needs to be punished. It reminds me of the whole debarking thing - that was all bought into law because of an accusation that breeders stick a pipe down a dog's throat and hit it with a hammer. Not one single case has ever been shown to have happened but just in case every person who needs to have a dog debarked has to run the gauntlet and cant just make a choice that they think is best for their dog. I'm haven't disagreed with that, Steve, despite certain people in the thread getting all het up about it. Yeah I know.

Many dogs are registered on main overseas and can only go on limited - including non recognised colours etc. How do you think they will limit which dogs can be shown if they dont put all docked dogs on limited register?

Sheridan as you know I agree with this but everything about the ANKC pushes people to show their dogs to be able to properly assess their breeding potential. Most people who show believe this as well and whether I think they are mistaken and its possible to assess the dog without the need of showing them isn't the point - this is about taking the right for them to show their dogs even if the dogs are docked according to all laws - here or elsewhere. It means a withdrawal of any dog docked here as well as over seas from competition. It means every person who owns a dog with a docked tail is assumed to be a person who deliberately commits acts of extreme cruelty and in case someone somewhere might deliberately break a tail everyone needs to be punished. It reminds me of the whole debarking thing - that was all bought into law because of an accusation that breeders stick a pipe down a dog's throat and hit it with a hammer. Not one single case has ever been shown to have happened but just in case every person who needs to have a dog debarked has to run the gauntlet and cant just make a choice that they think is best for their dog.

Could this contravene the Trade Practices act or the freedom of trade between countries. ? No you can still trade with them and haven't been restricted in that - you can also exercise your property rights and take your dog to another state or country and have a vet legally dock its tail - but if you then take it to a dog show you are guilty of a criminal act in Victoria - even though you have not committed any act of cruelty and it was done by a vet and as it is your property you have every right to take it to another place for vet treatment.

Electronic motions allow no debate.The ANKC guidelines for out of session motions state. 3.. Motions will be circulated to all ANKC directors advising a date of 60 days for response. 6.A resolution in writing shall be deemed to have been passed when signed by the regulate number of directors required for the validity of the resolution, even if this occurs prior to the date determined in 3. This motion may have actually already been voted on and ANKC Directors are able to ignore if they so wish instructions from their state board on how to vote and to do whatever they wish, With all voting details kept private.

The laws are in and chances of them ever being overturned are remote - the issue is not the law its the bloody rednecks in the ANKC who want to bring in regs which outlaw more than the laws do.The fact that the law which treats people who get a dog legally docked somewhere else by a qualified vet as criminals if it isnt done in their state if they take it to a dog show is unbelievable already without this.It has huge potential ramifications.