Steve

Surely not - I think its about people who get fines when they are a members and then chuck it in or get chucked out still have to pay the fines. I think . Who would really know what they mean Where do the pet greyhound owners stand? Are they even owners anymore? Well what happens if you have a couple that have been racing and you simply want to keep them and not race them - seems to be blocked. Its just so hard to believe that your right to decide what happens to you own animals is removed from you.

Surely not - I think its about people who get fines when they are a members and then chuck it in or get chucked out still have to pay the fines. I think .

In 1953 their life expectancy was 6 years.

thanks, always suspected that but never knew for sure so few were interested in those days ie, prior 2000 Well these days all you need to do is get your breeding dogs DNA swabbed and tested for it and you can make sure it doesn't show again while you also get to enjoy blue dogs.

Colour dilution alopecia doesn't occur in all dogs withblue or fawn coats, and the frequency varies within affected breeds. It is the result of a faulty version of the d allele, knownas dl. Not all breeds carry this faulty allele, and the majority of blues arecompletely healthy. There are various different D alleles, and only one of thesecauses CDA. Technically this makes CDA a recessive allele, as it is recessiveto D (non-dilute, non-CDA) however dl is dominant over the standard d allele. What this all means is that CDA can be bred out of mostlines by careful breeding and genetic testing to eliminate the dl allele infavour of the healthy d allele.

If they just wanted to stop greyhound racing it wouldn't be this detailed. Indeed that and what it means I have been fearing since this has been announced. The precedent I believe has been set. --Lhok \ these are the people they joined and trusted to look after them. By joining them and being part of the monopoly all it dis was ensure they have nowhere to go . If they simply resign from GRNSW they can then do what they want - there is no new laws in yet and if they arent members they have no method of putting on fines or restricting them - but they wont like sheep to the slaughter. Since when does some org get to dictate when and where you choose to take, sell or PTS your own property and get to keep its members?

Well its pretty hard to have it both ways. Most purebred breeders have other lives .They have families, they work ,go to the toilet, watch TV attend dog shows ,go to the vet, train, clean etc. They breed dogs as a hobby - that's what you all want isn't it? You dont want them to have more than average number of dogs or breed more than a litter or two a year you certainly don't want them to make money out of what they do but you still expect that they behave like a business and put everything other than puppy enquiries and their PR as priority. The real world sadly doesn't have enough purebred puppies bred by registered purebred breeders an no mount of promotion of purebred dogs or breeders being more accessible or more available will fill the demand for puppies that sees people go to other places to buy puppies. Purebred breeders aren't sitting around with litters of puppies they cant sell.

Well its a nice discussion on philosophy biology and sociology but Im sorry, its not doing anything to give me hope that all will be well. None of this addresses for me what I believe to be the current most significant threat and no matter how exclusive or otherwise the ANKC is or should be or how the environment interacts etc changes the fact that within our current culture across the board whether people are breeding as ANKC members or having one litter of pets with no papers or puppy farming or BY breeding with or without papers dogs are being bred which suffer due to the conformational characteristics. For just a minute forget about what group you belong to or what breeds you love ,forget about pedigrees, and show rings - see that what has happened in the grey world was able to happen because almost everyone who wasn't part of the problem could see that what they were doing was cruel. they couldn't see it and never ever believed that what has happened could happen. No matter what they said, no matter what crazy new regs and restrictions on paperwork or picking up poo and accountability addressed the cruelty issues those who were calling for it to be shut down could see. Animal rights groups, animal welfare groups and ordinary every day people who become educated on how these things [such as brachy heads ] affect quality of life have been warning those breeding them they are coming.Pedigree dogs exposed, the Bateson report, changes all over the world to mandatory breeding protocols [except in Australia] studies, papers, white papers, propaganda, sensationalism, and very few within the environment who could change it have said - "we see it we get it and we agree ,this is what we are doing to fix it and these are the results we have to show you. You don't need to legislate against this because we are on top of it. " Because just as the grey people didn't see it nor do we . Right the way up to now some are still saying the craziest things to try to justify why its O.K. to breed dogs that cant breath - big fat lies are told to make out that its better than it was. The individuals can go out and do what they can to improve their results but no one will notice because unless you get a big bunch of individuals yelling about what they have done and their great results - nothing. If you do happen to get a group together that can show they get it and they are doing something about it the group that has decided to do nothing but deny they are being cruel go to war with them. So as far as I can see sooner or later unless we all flee from the group that is denying it and excusing it and behaving just the way the grey people did we all go down. I get it - the whole pedigree thing environment etc but the red hot headline is that the world has changed and almost anything can be changed and legislated out of existence if the activity includes acts which are considered cruel.

well I reckon they had better get a property lawyer, a consumer law lawyer and a constitutional lawyer and quick.

so it may not comes as such a suprise then that a friend who breeds, trains and races her own thouroughbreds recently received notification from henceforth she can no longer move any of her horses from one paddock to another, not even on her own property, to take to the vet or anywhere else for that matter without notifying the AJC of the intention of doing so. (I think she said but dont quote me on it till I recheck with her) She didnt mention what the penalty for non compliance will be. she cannot euthanase any of her stock regardless of the severity of injury, or even dispose of a body, not even a stillborn foal without reporting first to a body whose sole supposed purpose is the administration of Thoroughbred Racing in this country? What is going on by stealth? anyone notice a whiff of Peta in the breeze ? or is it just imagination? this is why we advocated against licensing - because it effectively hands over ownership of the animal which you only get to keep if you do it their way without any judicial assessment and they can change the rules at any time.

It's most people, including most breeders. You'd think most pet owners would be in favour of higher standards of breeder care and health testing. So why do they keep buying puppy farm dogs? A big part is because there IS a disconnect. They don't understand the processes of sourcing a good breeder. They don't understand what a good breeder does or why they do it. Thats not taught or demonstrated. The pedigree is given as the answer. Not its foundations. You see I think that's crap .Who tells people the way to tell a good breeder is only because of the pedigree ?

Thanks Gruff. I wish I could be plainer, but this is the way I talk. Its not such a problem face to face. Buy yeah, you have it right. When you create an organization, you are creating an environment with its own purpose. Thats not usualy a problem, because its still just PART of an environment out of many parts. The problem is when its a closed or exclusive organization. It sets limits its pupose. Its no longer just another part of the whole. Its distinct from the rest. Its members are responding to that organized environment alone. The demands from out side are an intrusion on that space. Theres very little give and take of messages to act on. The message its members act on are those set out at its inception. The culture is set, or fixed and not able to quickly adapt or respond to change. Its an environment for its members, but since it 'acts' independently of the larger environment, its also an identity. Or another 'self' but far more influential on the larger environment than you or me on our own because of the sheer numbers of individuals all acting on the same message. Each in their own way, yes. But still the single environment and the messages its members receive from THAT environment. If its an exclusive org, Its messages must take precedence and its members a fixed single identity. The purpose( keeping pedigrees) isn't the problem. Thats an identity that serves a purpose. The exclusive nature is. Because that makes it an environment IN an identity it can't escape. It can't effectively respond to any demands out side of its ' self '. It can't be both a distinct identity and an isolated environment. An environment does not respond. It can only demand. So what is your solution? Theres a disconnect because of a 'line in the sand' The pedigree. Thats the line. ( and why pedigree comes up) Blur the line. Scuff it. It doesn't have to be an elite or an exclusive field to keep pedigrees for pure breed dogs, or even to keep them pure. Any one can full the criteria to become a member, follow the rules and gain those pedigree certificate to be an 'exclusive' or 'elite' breeder. Thats what we tell them to do if they are to have any credibility at all as a breeder. The full membership and pedigree certificates give them credentials as elite and exclusive breeders. Wrong message as I see it. It shouldn't be seen as an elite or exclusive field (or identity/environment) to be a breeder producing what people want. It can't be if it expects to meet the needs of the community beyond its own borders. It should be a dedicated field. You throw a whole lot of stuff out the window right there. The FOUNDATION of a good dog isn't a pedigree paper bestowed on it. The foundations of a good dog is dedication. To understanding dog husbandry, behavior, traits,temperament, purpose, conformation, health genetics etc that allows a person use use the information they have. The pedigree allows a dedicated person to do it more effectively. It doesn't give you a good dog if the foundations aren't there. Promoting the end result of good breeders work isn't the same as promoting the foundations of a good breeder. Not unless it ends there. MM each time we get to this bit and again I honestly think that there is a huge chunk missing in your base line. Its here where I I become lost In the real world outside of this forum the vast majority are not telling people that the only way they can have any credibility is if they are members of the ANKC in fact the majority are saying exactly the opposite. The ANKC has over 30,000 members Australia wide and only 3 and half thousand are breeders of these three and a half thousand people only approx 80 of them breed more than 10 litters a year. So they have 27000 members who are there for other reasons and many of them dont own purebred dogs , they participate in other dog related activities sanctioned by the ANKC A full membership and owning a registered pedigreed purebred dog gives someone the ability to provide a registered certification of who the dogs parents are and to participate in conformation shows to determine which dogs on the day that are registered and will be used for breeding resemble the breed standard. Im not sure why you want to tell us that a good dog isnt a pedigree paper bestowed on it . Any breeder knows this and so do people who are looking at buying them and owning them. thousand's of people sell puppies everyday with hand written pedigrees where some or none of the dogs have ever been on the ANKC registry. ANKC breeders have been promoted as being a more preferable source of puppies in the past because they have had had third party accountability and historically they are the only ones who did. Thats no longer the case with updated state laws and codes. I prefer to buy from a person who can give me a registered pedigree because for me its important for me to know that for the last several generations my dog has the same breed ancestors. If Im buying a beagle I want to know that its a beagle and I believe the best way of knowing that is to get one with a registered pedigree because if I buy one without it grandad may have been a pit bull. Everyone Ive ever sold a puppy to buys one from me for the same reason. they don't ask to see the pedigree first or ask what relatives are in the pedigree etc they know a good pedigree isnt what makes the dog. So what a small group of breeders breed purebred dogs and register their puppies on a stud book. They promote what they do because they make a truck load of money out of it . I do whatI do because Im interested in more than the generation Im putting on the ground and knowing who the parents are helps me to avoid health problems and temperament issues. Its not because Im more exclusive or elite - its simply because my goals are better achived by being able to access the dogs which have a recorded history - those who breed dogs outside of the pedigree system have different goals not because Im better than them etc but because we have different goals. Its not the use of a registered pedigree system or the exclusive ability for only members to be able to register their puppies with them or their desire to have only dogs their members breed listed on the registry in the year 2016 that is the problem and in the real world purebred registered breeders are seen as pond scum by much of the wider environment. this forum is not indicative of what is real in the dog world.

The major difference which links in with some of MM points is that the people who are members of a group. ANKC, AAPDB and the MDBA hear it, see it, and we know its in the mix . We can all tell our stories of how our members are targeted and how we are punched up on pretty much every level by animal rights. As groups we have choices in how we will respond in order to create change or fight for where we are and want to stay. The rest of the members of the wider environment who are not being kept upto date on what is going one will still know to keep an eye out for the radicals but they wont see a possible ban on them breeding certain breed types coming. Whats more we all know - those within and outside of the ANKC environment that they [the ANKC - own the breed standard that they run the shows that these breeds compete in and everyone seriously expects that if it is a situation where any part of what they publicly proudly make so much money out of is under threat that of all groups, all environments or all members of that environment that this is where the battle will rage . If this environment group isn't going to pull their gloves on and fight for those who breed these breed types then who will? And to be honest why would the rest of the world want to be included rather than get as far away from them as possible to save themselves?

It's most people, including most breeders. You'd think most pet owners would be in favour of higher standards of breeder care and health testing. So why do they keep buying puppy farm dogs? Because 'registered breeders' ie, ANKC member body, and their members, come across as exclusive, which they are, by the very nature of the membership. They go and buy puppy farm dogs because those breeders work within the larger less exclusive environment of 'most people' I'm not saying it's great, just saying that it is that way 'Registered breeders' need to find ways to become less exclusive and more involved with 'most people' .. If they don't at best they will just remain their own little exclusive environment with little meaning to most people, at worst they will cease to exist because of the pressure of 'most people'.......which in the interests of staying on topic, is pretty much what has happened to greyhound racing NSW They go and buy puppy farm dogs because they can get one from them - because there is no where near enough bred by ANKC registered breeders to fill the demand. Sure some wont like how some registered breeders make the process harder but most of us don't in fact lots of us will sell to anyone without a care in the world about where they are going. For now the environment [ the general public] is as desensitised to the way a particular breed characteristic makes the dogs they choose suffer as the people who are breeding them are. Registered breeders who are breeding them are a drip in the ocean of the rest who are breeding them. The other bit of the environment wants less dogs to suffer because of how they are selected and it gets bigger and louder every day. The strategy from every one breeding them and owning them is denial whether they are pedigreed or not and until there is an acknowledgment that its a problem and it needs to be dealt with its a threat to the status quo - but Im curious as to how such a small minority ecxclusib=ve group[ environment] is expected to be able to control what those outside of their environment do and how they can not be in the muck as the plug is pulled. The greyhound thing really was/ is exclusive. You cant breed a grey or race it unless you were part of that exclusive gang [environment] but anyone can breed a pug without being a part of any environment [ group].

Thanks Gruff. I wish I could be plainer, but this is the way I talk. Its not such a problem face to face. Buy yeah, you have it right. When you create an organization, you are creating an environment with its own purpose. Thats not usualy a problem, because its still just PART of an environment out of many parts. The problem is when its a closed or exclusive organization. It sets limits its pupose. Its no longer just another part of the whole. Its distinct from the rest. Its members are responding to that organized environment alone. The demands from out side are an intrusion on that space. Theres very little give and take of messages to act on. The message its members act on are those set out at its inception. The culture is set, or fixed and not able to quickly adapt or respond to change. Its an environment for its members, but since it 'acts' independently of the larger environment, its also an identity. Or another 'self' but far more influential on the larger environment than you or me on our own because of the sheer numbers of individuals all acting on the same message. Each in their own way, yes. But still the single environment and the messages its members receive from THAT environment. If its an exclusive org, Its messages must take precedence and its members a fixed single identity. The purpose( keeping pedigrees) isn't the problem. Thats an identity that serves a purpose. The exclusive nature is. Because that makes it an environment IN an identity it can't escape. It can't effectively respond to any demands out side of its ' self '. It can't be both a distinct identity and an isolated environment. An environment does not respond. It can only demand. So what is your solution? The 'environment' outside of of the ANKC Is everyone else other than their members, which is a lot of people, largely ordinary pet owners and non pet owners. The ANKC have created their own little environment in which is members are stuck, exclusively. The bigger, outside environment, ie, the general public, is demanding change, but the exclusive environment of the ANKC inhibits change by its very nature. The solution lies in the smaller environment, the ANKC, making itself less exclusive and more able to adapt to the bigger environment, the general public. I don't have answers on how they can do that, maybe moosmum doesn't either. What she has done is realise and explain the problem. The change can only come from within. The larger outside environment of the general public is putting more and more pressure on the smaller exclusive environment of the ANKC. The smaller environment will implode unless it finds ways to become more harmonious and inclusive to the larger environment. Right now the ANKC (and all that encompasses) are sort of in the pressure cooker. They have to vent enough pressure into the outside environment or they will explode/destruct. Geez MM I'm starting to sound like you! I am an uneducated person. If I can get my head around it surely it can't be that hard. You just have to think about it. Yes I understood all of that and I agree - to a point . I still get frustrated and lost when the pedigree environment or system or whatever is in the mix. As to how they can do that - I don't believe they can based on the current system and I conceded about 13 years ago that I couldn't see them changing from within. So we started another environment that isn't exclusive that has adapted and does continue to do so with changing world environment. Fact is this particular issue is about conformational characteristics which are being bred into a dog which compromise its health and welfare which is now on the radar and being tagged cruelty. This is not unique to the ANKC or the pedigree system - some may argue it was originally caused by the show system and breed standards but in the year 2016 thousands of people breed these dogs and most are far outside of this exclusive environment. They are part of the environment as a whole. if over night the ANKC became less exclusive and let them all in and throw their stud books open without any restriction and were therefore more inclusive how do you see that this would stop the breeding of dogs which suffer due to the way they are selected - how do you think by being more inclusive this would prevent legislation into the future which may prohibit some conformational issues or breeds or showing when so many outside of the current environment do so now and whether they are in or out will continue to do so. So in amongst all of this environment talk - which I would be more able to keep up with if each environment was named as a more conventional description - where in all of this do ratbags, zealots, radicals fit in when they are nothing more than a small but noisy cashed up part of the game?

You can say that again. Again I say to you play the ball and not the man.

Thanks Gruff. I wish I could be plainer, but this is the way I talk. Its not such a problem face to face. Buy yeah, you have it right. When you create an organization, you are creating an environment with its own purpose. Thats not usualy a problem, because its still just PART of an environment out of many parts. The problem is when its a closed or exclusive organization. It sets limits its pupose. Its no longer just another part of the whole. Its distinct from the rest. Its members are responding to that organized environment alone. The demands from out side are an intrusion on that space. Theres very little give and take of messages to act on. The message its members act on are those set out at its inception. The culture is set, or fixed and not able to quickly adapt or respond to change. Its an environment for its members, but since it 'acts' independently of the larger environment, its also an identity. Or another 'self' but far more influential on the larger environment than you or me on our own because of the sheer numbers of individuals all acting on the same message. Each in their own way, yes. But still the single environment and the messages its members receive from THAT environment. If its an exclusive org, Its messages must take precedence and its members a fixed single identity. The purpose( keeping pedigrees) isn't the problem. Thats an identity that serves a purpose. The exclusive nature is. Because that makes it an environment IN an identity it can't escape. It can't effectively respond to any demands out side of its ' self '. It can't be both a distinct identity and an isolated environment. An environment does not respond. It can only demand. So what is your solution?

Asal you don't need to justify yourself or why you or anyone sold to Mcdougall back then . Mcdougall advertised a big two page spread in the Canine Journal and a printed notice for Dogs NSW members was circulated telling all of their members how great it would be for them to proceed to sell their puppies to PIAA member Transpet who was an agent for Mcdougall.No one who sold puppies back then to them breached any ethics or regs and some of the biggest names in the business were involved. It was actively encouraged by the canine councils. That was then this is now and what ever you did or did not do 20 years ago simply isn't something you need to feel you should have to answer for on a public forum especially in a thread about banning greyhounds. Better to ignore the bullies when they start.

Yes I got all that and that's pretty much what I'm advocating but seems there is much that looses me and it all seems to be centred around the pedigrees.

The AKC has 90 full time employees and an operating budget that goes to seven figures. Resources matter. If resources matter why not do away with the states and restructure it so there is only one body then? Also how'd the AKC get to where it is today? it started small and worked up. If we continue with the excuses as to why this and that can't be done we will never get anywhere. --Lhok Well for a start the AKC don't have members they simply register dogs and have a show system. Their breed clubs rule what is and isnt able to be registered - prime example of this is the Dalmatian club still blocking the ability to open the stud book for preventing a genetic disease some 16 years after it was possible and breed clubs run the show and they affiliate they recognise them for a fee and issue awards.

Health results on every breed. What does that mean exactly. If the dog or any of its ancestors have had health tests or scores done that is recorded on the pedigree which every person who owns a dog for at least 4 generations can see by simply looking at the pedigree. .If any of the dogs in the family tree turn up with any illness or problem that is recorded, in some breeds what each ancestor did for work or activity is recorded, all qualifications are recorded not just those which are affiliated with the ANKC /FCI So if grandad had crook hips, or grandma needed a Csection, if cousins had allergies etc its all there. Puppy buyers can see that these things are important for their breeder when selecting breeding dogs and breeders can see things they might need to consider when choosing a mate. Its not reliant on someone's memory or honesty in relaying information pertinent to pedigree profiling. These things are then tracked so we know if any particular pattern is showing for any breed or lines way before you would normally know so breeders can be advised if new tests are required or if tests being done are wasting their money etc. But you've said you don't have any wheaten breeders. Even if you did I can't imagine that breeders who aren't members would consent to their dogs details being handed over to a private business. Puppy buyers are happy to hand over their dog's health issues and accomplishments. We knew from day one that we couldn't rely on breeders for such info alone and just because we don't have breeders of any particular breed doesn't mean we are not collecting data and recording it as it comes to us. If you want to be picky some breeds we have lots of info on others not much yet but as it arrives its added in so it can be used to help people breed great dogs. Do you think OFA, Pennhip Orivet etc are not private companies?

If you can't be bothered to explain your point in language people understand then we have a problem don't we. It isn't the science that's the problem but your inability or unwillingness to explain it without the gibberish. Most concepts can be explained in lay men's terms. How is this different? AR don't give a toss about the science. They care about the outcome that the science may be supporting. They care about their anti-dog agenda. They don't care if science supports it or not. They only care if they get their way. Yep

Health results on every breed. What does that mean exactly. If the dog or any of its ancestors have had health tests or scores done that is recorded on the pedigree which every person who owns a dog for at least 4 generations can see by simply looking at the pedigree. .If any of the dogs in the family tree turn up with any illness or problem that is recorded, in some breeds what each ancestor did for work or activity is recorded, all qualifications are recorded not just those which are affiliated with the ANKC /FCI So if grandad had crook hips, or grandma needed a Csection, if cousins had allergies etc its all there. Puppy buyers can see that these things are important for their breeder when selecting breeding dogs and breeders can see things they might need to consider when choosing a mate. Its not reliant on someone's memory or honesty in relaying information pertinent to pedigree profiling. These things are then tracked so we know if any particular pattern is showing for any breed or lines way before you would normally know so breeders can be advised if new tests are required or if tests being done are wasting their money etc.

Except breeders have been well trained to keep their campfires low and stay off the track - say too much get too obvious about who you are and what you do and you are likely to be wallopped. Those who have more than one or two dogs who have a genuine interest in seeing it stay as it is are the least likely to make waves and shout about it . We are divided -where are the dog related groups who have stood up for the greyhound people where are the dog related groups who join with us to fight crap legislation - where are we if they need us. How many dog related people and groups are going to go in and shout and donate money to help the people who compete in lure work? They are in the same place as they were when the docking ban was being fought or the BSL fight or so many other issues. The "dog world" is so fragmented and wrapped up in individual opinions that they will never support each other and soon it will be too late. Yep.

Yes good thinking except that's not what they are on about that is specific to purebred dogs .How we keep them is already being dealt with and the CCs are working hard to be sure they have this bit covered the whole puppy farming thing is already in the mix for all breeders. Having a bit of paper to say your dog or its parents have been health tested and more education wont help in that area as with health testing you can still have dogs that get sick and suffer and they still make puppies that do too. It also depends what you are health testing for and guess what people who are breeding outside of the ANKC pedigree system are actually having their dogs health tested too and in many cases more than the registered breeders are. I agree that they can still get sick. But surely doing all available tests, carefully or not breeding from dogs who have allergies or have epilepsy & keeping open contact with puppy buyers is better than nothing (I know, I didn't mention allergies or epilepsy in the above post but I did see it mentioned earlier)? I think being open and honest with the public about health testing & what the kennel clubs are doing to improve general health is important. Many Aussie Shepherd breeders here contribute to a site called Aussiesdownunder.com and it lists health testing results as papers don't have those details. Pretty much all the breeders I know want to know of ANY health issues their dogs produce so that they can get to the bottom of it. I don't think anyone wants to produce an unhealthy dog, not only because the dog will suffer but its family will also suffer. There are only so many tests available... But what about the recent study that shows our dogs are dying sooner there are no genetic tests for epilepsy or allergies all you can see is that a dog doesnt have these things on the day .It can still get them and it can still produce puppies with them. What are the kennel clubs doing to improve general health?