Steve

Bend your hand toward your wrist and feel the back of your hand - thats how you want to be able to feel your dogs ribs and how you know when its over or under weight.

Well if she has good lines and breeders before you have done as well as you think - and the bitch is already pregnant - and all of the reasons you just gave - as well as you were intending to test them before you decide they go anywhere that the other 5 puppies are doing just fine without any of the extra good things you do and they may just turn out to be just like their nana rather than their Mum and put good stuff in rather than bad stuff - and you dont have any intention at this point in using any for breeding and affecting the future anyway ????? Its none of my business and I will support you which ever way you go but I think you should let it go - not for the money , or to prove anything but because nothing has changed from two days ago than today except you have been belted by people who don't necessarily know what they are talking about - and because it's life and its already cooking.

Yep but its pretty hard to cover it all especially when its stuff you expecta vet to know and inform you about - knowing you have breeding dogs. There is always the sideways smack too. Couple of months ago I was sitting on my front porch in the middle of 30 acres when my visitor said - whats that smell. It was the idiot next door spraying chemicals in a strong breeze which happened to dump the stuff all over us. My first reaction is I have a pregnant dog you just put that crap all over - my friend and I had headaches for about a week afterwards . Geez I was mad. Anyway the bitch whelped O.K. Point is you cant control everything - but you do expect to get a little help.

Its just always scary when you put the dogs up you intend to breed with .

Oh Oh.

I know you have been put through the mill on this but Ive re read through all of this and if you dont mind Im not going to make it any easier . Why have you decided to abort your puppies? Forget about beating yourself up because you did the mating and copped this beating - explain why you think its best for the bitch and her puppies if her puppies are killed as you explained why she appeared to be a fair choice for breeding.

Its being boarded at the moment at a vet in Penrith area and they have it on valium to keep her less stressed . Problem is they have told them they will find somewhere for them to live in about a fortnight but after doing the Pacers stuff I'm sort of saying dont hold your breath so on Monday Ill start going after other options if a foster carer still hasn't turned up. Julie

By the way when I worked out what I thought it was it was so obvious to me and I became pretty bloody mad at my vet.If I could find out this stuff surely she should have known it wasnt good for breeding dogs but when I spoke with her I really dont believe she had any idea .fact is vets cant research every drug they base their advice on what the drug companies give them - testing on animal products isnt as well managed as human stuff and they uisually dont test them on breeding anials , you also wont see much on long term issues because they only test a short time. So with something that goes in - runs around their body every month they test the immediate side effects and give super large does to see what the safety level is not ones that may become a problem over an extended period of time or if the dog is pregnant.

This raises a whole series of questions for my and my current situation. No ticks here, but I have been using Revolution on my girl for topical flea (and heartworm) treatment because it is supposedly safe for breeding bitches. I have never used it when my bitch was either in season or after she had been mated. I have, though, used it just before she came in season, cos on each of her last 2 seasons she has surprised me and come in season a month earlier than expected - so the treatment has been on her just a few weeks before she came into season. hmmm...... Ill tell this story again. Years ago my vet advised me on a product to use for my dogs to prevent heartworm. Id never used heartworm meds before but it was and is pushed pretty much so that's what I did . Every bitch I bred for 2 years aborted about 6 weeks into her pregnancy .As you can imagine I was pretty upset and the vet was looking into what might be causing it - no questions like you are asking because mine had all carried pups to full term before and it was happening in all 4 of my lines. Just when I was about ready to chuck it in I had a net conversation with someone who had purchased two of my cats in the states and by sheer co incidence she said she was having the same problems in her dogs as I was having in mine. Hers were worse as she was breeding more So we started to look at what we had been doing in common. Only thing was the heartworm med .We both went nuts and researched the studies and the chemical not the stuff the drug companies put out. We came to the concision it had to be the heartworm med. We both stopped using it and neither of us has ever had a problem again .The same bitches went on to have normal healthy litters and none of their daughters, grandaughters, great grand daughters or great great grand daughters have ever shown a sign of a breeding problem. Its food for thought alright I was almost convinced it was caused by eating possum poo but my mate in the states didn't have any possums. I used to have some good links on this stuff and how it affects fertility but it will take me a minute to find them again.

I didnt name anyone as being a wombat or say anyone in particular was behaving as a school yard bully - I haven't personally attacked anyone - my comments were generic,no posts were quoted nothing specific aimed or intended more than generally and if anyone thinks they were aimed at them then perhaps thats indicative of them knowing they have been across the line because I haven't told anyone who I think is a wombat.

I wouldn't call a breed which registered 600 puppies last year - about 90 % placed on limited register and of the ones left on main only some suitable for breeding and put that with breeders who wont sell breeding dogs to people who are trying to get it too right a numerically strong breed. Suppose its about what you are comparing it to.

Miranda this bitch is already pregnant and I don't happen to agree that flogging someone publicly is the answer to much at all.I call what has been done here nothing short of bullying and in case it means anything I had no idea I was on anyone's friends page what ever that may be. Regardless of what you say even if Dog Geek had been in this breed for one day that's still one day longer than most people who have answered here including you and me. If you are right and she is such a new kid What of the breeder who sold her this bitch and told her she was suitable for breeding and good to go ? What of the 5 puppies this bitch has already had . The bitch is having the puppies and if Nic didnt know before she sure as hell knows now what some other people think and Im sure she will take that into account in future but no one here can justify some of the personal attacks and things that have been said whether you agree with what she has done or not.

Actually although its a bit off topic I thought of you when I saw this one .I think you live in an area were it would be advised to use this stuff. It also makes you wonder if this stuff is put on the skin and it gets in and causes a problem with sperm how it might affect men who play with and touch and handle the dog while it is on there. Im lucky Ive never even seen a flea and no such thing as ticks here so we don't need to use these products but its still food for thought at least and makes you hesitate to expose breeding dogs to anything until you check it and consider if its your best option. Have to say it ticks me off that its not a warning before you use it. http://bullmarketfrogs.com/blog/2011/10/topical-insecticides-and-reproductive-health-in-dogs/

Do you have a stud dog chosen?

Its common in any breed for things to be different for every dog on every season - nothing to worry about she will come in .You could try some Aloe juice as sometimes that moves it along a bit. Hi Steve I realise every dog has different time spans between seasons, I guess I was just wanting some reassurance - I think I picked the wrong place to ask though which is a bit sad. Afterall we are all here to ask questions and learn and not be flamed What does the Aloe juice actualy do ? the Aloe has all of the amino acids - essential and non essential, all of the vitamins and minerals and a pile of other stuff in small amounts which interact on each other. If she is taking her time because she is lacking something, or a bit stressed etc it can make a difference and it cant do any harm. its kind of like the old sayings - a watched pot never boils, waiting on a bitch to come in season seems to take longer and its about the same when you are waiting for them to whelp. How old is she and how many times has she been in season before now? has she had puppies before? Thanks for that Steve, she is two and a half, hasnt whelped before and has had 2 seasons previously Then Im sure you have nothing to be concerned about.

Good idea. Thanks

We have had about $180 for donations but so far no offers for a foster carer so we may have to consider leaving the cat where it is and paying the boarding fees for them at this stage. Some have offered furniture etc - they cant determine yet anything they need in that regard as they are staying in a motel and much will depend on when and where they find a place to live. If they need furniture and household goods when they get to a place I will come back and let you all know. thank you to everyone who has given a little it means a lot Julie

Actually - there are no regulations around this - whether you are a CC member or not they don't get to tell you what you can do with dogs which they don't have on their registry. And sadly the White Shepherd has only two options in this country. 1. Being breed unregistered by those that have no clue OR 2. Being breed by an experienced and informed breeder. Either way at this point, they will not get registered and risk becoming extinct in Australia. They have been breed quite seperately and are distintly becoming a different breed to the Swiss White Shepherd. (read from information on a US website where both breeds are recognised as individuals.) They can be registered now on the MDBA foundation registry.

Ok couple of things - you got the bitch and mated her and didn't have her checked for patellas until after she was pregnant? If that's right you may find [ probably will] that her scores may be lower 3 months after she has the pups. The relaxin which is secreted when a mammal is pregnant makes the ligaments react differently. Whether or not the knee cap is deformed and has caused the problem or whether the problem may have been caused by things post birth is important too.it may be too late now for you to be able to determine whether a deformity caused the problem. Most people who have patella checks done only have them scored by manipulation but they really need to have the joints looked at via X ray really early to see if its something the pup was born with or something it acquired. just this alone will give you many more considerations in how you select in future if wiping out patella issues is going to be high on your list of things to try to avoid. As you are clearly already aware but Ill say it anyway for the peanut gallery the chances that any pup bred by parents with any or no score in your breed is at risk of Patella problems and regardless of whether you have used a dog with a 3 grade or a zero any breeder breeding these dogs would need to warn their puppy buyers that there is a reasonable risk of their puppy developing the problem. the experts here tell us that breeding a 3 is an increased risk but that isnt necessarily the truth of it and studies done in other breeds on hips and elbows show that breeding a dog with a higher score to a dog with a lower score can give a reasonable chance of a better result. If its a deformity then that's easy you can clearly check em all when they are new and see that on X- ray No point in just getting a vet you think can check by manipulation and give an accurate score because it doesn't answer how the joint looks when the pup is born. Now if the pup has good looking joints it has no patella issues. If it develops patella issues as it grows no amount of scoring of the parents is going to help much because its where the other 60% of the equation starts to kick in. It is when other things can begin to impact such as injuries, diet, environment , stress etc and any breeder no matter what they do can breed a pup which will develop the problem. So here you are what is the answer to this bit ? Carry on as you are ensuring the bitch is kept without stress or parasites and she is being nutritionally well placed. Dont sell any puppies until you have their patellas Xrayed to ensure they have no congenital joint issues explain to the buyers that Poms get PL a lot that you have checked these and they are all clear - either advise them to take out insurance or you provide the first 12 months insurance - i can get you a reduced rate on that if you want to go that way.

Actually - there are no regulations around this - whether you are a CC member or not they don't get to tell you what you can do with dogs which they don't have on their registry.

Its common in any breed for things to be different for every dog on every season - nothing to worry about she will come in .You could try some Aloe juice as sometimes that moves it along a bit. Hi Steve I realise every dog has different time spans between seasons, I guess I was just wanting some reassurance - I think I picked the wrong place to ask though which is a bit sad. Afterall we are all here to ask questions and learn and not be flamed What does the Aloe juice actualy do ? the Aloe has all of the amino acids - essential and non essential, all of the vitamins and minerals and a pile of other stuff in small amounts which interact on each other. If she is taking her time because she is lacking something, or a bit stressed etc it can make a difference and it cant do any harm. its kind of like the old sayings - a watched pot never boils, waiting on a bitch to come in season seems to take longer and its about the same when you are waiting for them to whelp. How old is she and how many times has she been in season before now? has she had puppies before?

So many things to take into account .I think in your position I would put the fact that she is a bugger at keeping a litter without extras on one side and make sure you let everyone know that this bitch with this pedigree has had this problem. You can enter this for recording on the MDBA data base free of charge as well. That alerts anyone who has problems in future with any dog related that there is a risk this is what went wrong with their litter and they can treat it the way you have or to say its in the lines and not try any intervention. It would be a completely different answer if everyone in your breed were seeing this and if her Mum or her grandmother did this she wouldn't be here so until we have more info and we can see that its something which we need to select against or we can be sure its caused by some other reason I would keep the info close in my mind and move on as i intended to before the problem showed. For all we know supplementing the progesterone during pregnancy might impact on whether the girls in the litter will have the problem anyway. So until we have further info I would make sure I encouraged everyone to keep these kind of records and share them and start your own research project which in a few years time might answer questions for all of us.

Whew - you only have to hold your breath for another 2 weeks.You have probably already said but you intended to keep a bitch for breeding if the progesterone thing wasnt in the mix - is that right?

Its common in any breed for things to be different for every dog on every season - nothing to worry about she will come in .You could try some Aloe juice as sometimes that moves it along a bit.