Steve

There's also a huge part here that never seems to sink in. That breeder last night on the telly was complying with what we are all supposed to be doing . Pens of the right size, sealed floors, picking up poo health checks, keeping records, registered breeders, that is how the mandatory codes and guidlines wants us to keep our dogs. that breeder was within the code and within the regs and laws more than any breeder who whelps their puppies in their lounge room. What the hell is doing the right thing? Clearly following the law and codes isnt the right thing so when someone works out for us what is the right thing perhaps we will all feel if we are doing that we dont have anything to worry about.

The solution lies in having all breeders regardless of what they breed or how many out in the open where they are easily monitored and stop banging drums to get things happening that will never happen. All this does is ensure they do all they can to remain hidden in fear they get targeted.

Thats not quite true when there seems to be a variation in what is doing the right thing and its guilty till proven otherwise.Even when its proven otherwise someone accused has to suffer for years.

Without witnesses we are sitting ducks for anything any one wants to say about us.

If we run around judging and accusing people when its not proven then none of us are safe.

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road. Its against the law to put down dogs with garden tools why werent they charged? These conditions are against the mandatory code surely they havent been given approval to keep dogs like this?

Im the girl who takes the complaints - usually its not our members so I dont have to be bothered with them but sometimes it is our members so we have to investigate and put people through the wringer to check them out. Sometimes we employ a private investigator to do this. You could not possibly imagine what breeders dob each other in for and even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and say they truly believe what it is they are accusing them of the fact they see these things bad enough to dob them in over are so trivial and stupid is amazing. Watch the shit fight that comes out of this.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years. where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state. i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across. there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it. anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject. Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years. where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state. i think in other countrys its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it. anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject. Dogs Victoria didnt attend - MDBA, RSPCA Australia, RSPCA ACT, RSPCA NSW, AWL, Dogs NSW, ANKC, Deathrow Pets, Yound Lawyers, PIAA, AVA. QCCC missed the plane.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up. Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either. i've had kids come up to our dogs at dog shows running around wild and yelling and screaming and poke their fingers into the dogs cages and expect the dogs to be friendly when they are scaring the crap out of our little dogs and our breed doesn't like their territory being compromised by fingers who are hitting out, poking eyes out and what not . if my dogs bark then they are called nasty dogs but they are reacting to the kids running and jumping and getting excited. i've had to say don't do that please, you don't poke your fingers into strange dogs pens without asking permission of the owner. usually the parents are no where in sight either then if they see that its those dogs are nasty they are barking . gets me a bit some people have no idea. I know a breeder who locks her dogs up at night because she feels that stops any barking and it is more secure for them. They run the property all day unless they are having puppies and they are then confined to a pen to keep them safe. If someone were to come in with torches sneaking around in the night the dogs would react and it could be made to look like the dogs were always "locked up" rather than simply put to bed. I also know a registered breeder who has placed pick handles at every doorway and entrance who swears if anyone comes onto his property he will beat them and will gladly do time over it if need be. He has been visited 20 plus times over the years by RSPCA due to vexatious complaints and passed every inspection.

do they? because it was leaked who was actually members and there were all these notorious farms including one i know very well to not treat their dogs too well and have been raided because of not treating dogs too well. I personally know the person and have grown up knowing this person and i know how they treat their dogs like crap. So if they do do checks they don't do it very well or turn a blind eye. They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up. Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either.

Thats pretty hard to do even if you want to isnt it ? A bitch is pregnant for 9 weeks by the time they go home its 17 weeks - even if she came on heat within 4 weeks [and she wont] of her pups going home she still wouldnt whelp twice in 6 months.

Makes no sense to me. If people are not more likely to get mixed bred dogs from somewhere else how do they end up in shelters in the first place? Or are they talking only about adult dogs?

well im not saying it others are that have no inside info about breeding and owning dogs really not as involved as what you or I are. i guess they are meaning, if everyone was registered with a body that actually does checks like they think councils do.... thats a whole different story, then we can stamp out puppy farms. i dunno only assuming here. but i've had so many people say this to me when i discuss about puppy farms and ANKC breeders and petshops etc. etc. So where does that take us - the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders which represents commercial breeders has a code, its harder to get in and stay in than the ANKC is and really does do checks. You are still bogged into believing someone can be defined a puppy farmer by how many they breed or own - you still think that ANKC registered is somehow special and they are the only ones who can do what ever is needed to breed good dogs and keep them in above standard conditions.

Toy Dog http://www.prisoners...t.org.au/?p=580 Perhaps you missed this. Keep in mind these breeders are registered breeders and they have been selling huge amounts of puppies to Mc Dougall pet shops in Hawaii and NSW pet shops as is their right to do via the law and Dogs NSW codes - for a very long time - also remember in order for them to be accepted for export they have to be examined and prove to be healthy. Are they being charged - are they being sacked from Dogs NSW ? If so what is it they are guilty of and how have they breached the code if they say they are breeding for the betterment of the breed?

That should get the council and RSPCA eager to work with you However, if they failed to tender they should be clobbered.

One day when Im dead they may ban sales of live animals in pet shops but based on what I know that is flogging a dead horse.They would be much better served to accept that its going to happen and turn their attention onto pushing for greater regulation and laws to prevent animals suffering in pet shops. However, there is not now or ever a remote single chance that we will ever get to a point where only ANKC breeders can sell puppies. How on earth can they monitor it a bit better anyway ? The laws in every state are already more strict then any state Canine association code of ethics which everyone who breeds a dog has to comply with. The only thing an ANKC registered breeder has to do which everyone else doesnt is register all of their puppies.

The link you have provided to the discussion paper to explain what is a puppy farmer is not helpful now as the round table conference was held a year ago and a new definition and explanations were put in place. If you are calling for people to dob in a puppy farmer and a back yard breeder perhaps it would be prudent for you to explain exactly what that is, what a breeder's protection is against vexatious complaints, stalking and having their privacy breached on someone's say so.

How disappointing - just when you almost had me you show yourself to be just another group of animal rights fanatics who have gone off half cocked . Better get better educated before you start talking out loud.

Define Puppy Farmer? Define back yard breeder?

So what do you do with this information?

The people on the telly last night either still are or were until recently Dogs NSW Registered breeders.

If shelters are the most likely place for people to get mixed breed dogs does that mean shelters are whelping them?

No good the ones which have these type of connections are not O.K. for air travel. You need these ones.